Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204902#Comment_119204902

The concern I have is once we get over this tour, Sexton is likely to have a very long break from playing rugby and could find it difficult to get back up to pace.

You say his physical condition can change quickly, I'd agree, but I'd say this is unlikely to happen in the middle of a season, and is more likely to happen in the off season. Going from weeks (or months as it's likely to be in his case) of maybe just doing some workouts to avoid weight gain, but not getting hit in tackles or playing at match pace, to suddenly going back into matches is going to be more difficult at his age.

Former Former Former

It's very true that at Sexton's age, a rapid decline is very possible.

But the unavoidable truth is that there have been plenty of opportunities for his rivals to stake a claim and none have even come close. It speaks volumes that Joey Carbery, with all his flaws and injuries, is still untouchable as second choice. The others are all shite.

I'm not sure what people want really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205569#Comment_119205569

Sexton is surrounded by some of the best strength and conditioning experts in the world. I've no doubt he'll take a complete break after the NZ tour but his return to match fitness will be managed to a high standard and staggered over time. More to the point - collisions are not what I'd be concerned about, his mobility and pace are what are more likely to deteriorate - his ability to maintain mass and strength really shouldn't be an issue.

If Sexton's conditioning does fall off he'll lose his place. Leinster / Ireland aren't going to persist with him if he becomes a liability so ultimately the debate is a bit pointless. As of right now - Sexton is good to go, if that changes then it changes but I suspect he's probably disciplined enough around his conditioning that he'll still be hitting his straps in 12 months time.

Eamon Coughlan was still running sub 4 minute miles into his 40's. When athletes look after themselves they can push barriers well beyond the average.

Dubinusa

Sextons age is worrying! But, he's the best option. He'll be missed when he retires! There's a gulf between him and the rest. A big gulf.

When he is retired, we will cross our fingers and hold our breath, hoping that someone emerges from the mediocrity of out half. There's nobody available right now that is international quality!

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205569#Comment_119205569

All very true. It could have happened last season though too and didn’t. So we just have to cross our fingers and hope that it doesn’t happen this summer or next. That’s the unfortunate position we find ourselves in.

pickarooney

Is there some way of filtering posts whose content is just some variation of 'sexton is old but he's the best we have' ?

It feels like it's 60% of the thread.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204229#Comment_119204229

How bad is a ‘bad’ AB team, though? Potentially beatable by the top European team, perhaps? Which we are not. The tour should be seen more as a learning exercise from which, with any luck, we return with our key players uninjured. I’m not going to wax indignant about any defeats down there.

Madeoface

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206044#Comment_119206044

I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want.....

Frawley tried at 10 for a full half against the Maori, coming on for Carberry...who will be back to his best......unlikely scenarios but one can hope....

AbusesToilets

Be really interesting to see how the bench plays out. Hoping that 2 out of Frawley, Lowry and Larmour make the 23 at least. Be great if Frawley was able to show aptitude at that level for 10, to where he and Lowry could cover the backs.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206044#Comment_119206044

i think JC being untouchable is more of a 'we've invested in him and sent him to a different province so lets just double down' rather than him actually being deserving of his position of second choice 10. healy and and ross byrne have largely been better than him over the last two seasons and carty/burns have had moments too.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207892#Comment_119207892

It's possible! But, why would they persist with Joey, if he isn't performing? If someone else can run things better, give them the reins!

Dubinusa

I think the squad is a little bit on the small side! They play 5 games over a month long period!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207937#Comment_119207937

i think the munster/ireland coaching teams are going on the potential he apparently has and are hoping he'll eventually come good. personally, i havent seen much to suggest he could be the answer, he seems much more natural at 15 and thats where leinster/blackrock college mainly used him. on the other hand guys like Ronan O Gara are backing him so i suppose there must be something im not seeing

id personally love to see him at 15 with either ben healy or jack crowley at 10 for munster. crowley seemingly has even more potential than JC but hes been limited to sweet FA in terms of appearances

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206044#Comment_119206044

I know everyone keeps trotting out the "plenty of opportunities to stake their claim" but the reality is none of these lads are going to be good enough.

Sexton's form or fitness may decline badly but not a single Irish 10 will come close to what he was/is.

It's a bit like saying plenty of lads had the chance to beat Mike Tyson but they never staked their claim. Pretty damn hard to do when they kept getting knocked out because they were nowhere close to his level and never would be!!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208014#Comment_119208014

disagree completely, most/if not all of the other options have shown enough to warrant further investment in their development at 10 but the constant swapping between burns/carty/byrnes Ross and Harry is doing nobody any favours as they havent been given any time to actually get used to international rugby at 10. combine this with JC being injured more often than not and ireland are in the situation we currently are in. before everything outside of rugby matters happened, jackson was being given that time (mainly due to sexton's injuries) to grow into the role and he was starting to really push JS for the 10 jersey. obviously he isnt, and shouldnt be, a current option, but when he was backed and allowed to learn it paid off, albeit temporarily.

much as things fell of a cliff towards the end of his term, one of the things declan kidney managed masterfully was the development of johnny sexton. he realistically didnt deserve to become first choice 10 as early as he did, but kidney largely backed him between 2009 and 2011, even when he was performing poorly, meaning ireland had two world class 10 options at that rwc. i think JS was trying to do something similar with Jackson but i dont think we've really seen it from AF. maybe the idea was to do that with carbery and his injuries have hampered such a plan

Former Former Former

The idea that Carbery only gets picked because we've invested so much time in him is nonsense.

After the RWC, we played 14 tests for which Carbery was not available. That's 14 games when the others had a clear run to stake a claim to second choice and none of them could do so. Nearly two full years of nothing being invested in Carbery and he still walked straight back in.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208170#Comment_119208170

What do you think this proves?

Your argument appears to be that the fact Carbery gets picked is proof he's better than all the rest, because the Irish coaches are infallible? I think you are incredibly naive if you think the time invested into Carbery at this point is not a factor in his ongoing selection.

How many of those 14 games did Sexton start?

Podge_irl

much as things fell of a cliff towards the end of his term, one of the things declan kidney managed masterfully was the development of johnny sexton. he realistically didnt deserve to become first choice 10 as early as he did, but kidney largely backed him between 2009 and 2011, even when he was performing poorly, meaning ireland had two world class 10 options at that rwc

Not sure I've ever disagreed with something more strongly on this forum.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208208#Comment_119208208

I don't think the coaches are infallible. I think they're a lot less fallible than random internetters. I think they see more of the players than we ever do.

Even if Carbery is getting unfair preferential treatment, the fact that none of the rest of them can even establish themselves as third choice speaks volumes. It's gone from R Byrne to Burns to Carty to H Byrne and none of them have taken advantage. Now lads are crying about BEN HEALY not getting a fair go?!

Simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208170#Comment_119208170

if he walked straight back in that sorta weakens your argument rather than strengthens it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208318#Comment_119208318

none of them can get established cause they get given one game and then theyre binned. ross byrne got two starts against a rampant england team on days where pretty much none of the irish team played well, yet hes the scapegoat that gets most of the blame. its incredibly hard to come into an international team at 10, even harder when its a team that is based around sexton's game and time is needed to be given to any 10 to allow them to develop into the role. ive posted the stats on here before so im not going to again, but since the last rwc the only 10 to start more than two games in a row has been carbery, otherwise its been a one-off merry go round of the others. thats not conducive to developing options at 10

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208301#Comment_119208301

want to actually make an argument as to what youre saying or are you just leaving it as a blank statement?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208433#Comment_119208433

Kidney chopped and changed between ROG and Sexton constantly. I think Sexton was comfortably the better player, but regardless it was an awful way to maintain any kind of continuity. I have no idea how you can say he either largely backed Sexton or that he didn't deserve to be first choice as early as he was. After Ireland winning a match against Aus in the world cup he then changed both his halfbacks and proceeded to have his new halfbacks play a gamestyle much more suited towards the players replaced with pretty awful consequences. Hell he had Sexton playing at 12 to have ROG still at 10. Rog should have been shown the door at international level about two years before he was but Kidney could not possibly have handled it worse if he tried. There was absolutely no logic to his constant shifting back and forth between the two of them and we ended up with a team playing a gameplan suited for Sexton in the RWC QF with the completely wrong 10 (and 9 at the time) for it.

I don't think he developed Sexton at all. He belatedly added him to the team and repeatedly dropped him far too quickly while managing to create a media circus around the position.

AbusesToilets

Likely squandered our best chance to advance deep in the WC with that mess against a seriously good Wales side.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208555#Comment_119208555

sexton became de facto first choice with the SA game in 2009. he had obviously showed promise before then, but it was a big call for him to displace the lions sub 10 (shouldve started the first test too but thats a different argument) who had been a big part of irelands GS earlier that year. as o gara said in his doc, sexton basically came on in the semi of europe, started the final, a few magners games and the fiji game, suddenly he was first choice for ireland, thats a pretty big jump imo.

o gara only started the first two 6N games following that because sexton was injured, JS coming straight back into the team v england after a poor team display against france showed he was kidneys first choice. o gara started against nz and samoa that year in multi game series that there was always going to be some rotation, but didnt get any more than that despite sexton being poor down under and against SA at home. next 6N sexton was very poor first two games and i would say when the scotland game was the only time pre 2011 rwc that sexton was dropped for o gara, who then in turn was dropped for the england game despite both being poor against wales

I think Sexton was comfortably the better player - pre 2011 not at all, sexton was very hot and cold in those years but the exposure helped him (and the team) massively

the result was that ireland went to rwc 2011 with two of the best 10s in the world at the time in their squad. sexton probably wouldve stayed first choice but his goalkicking was very poor in the first two games and since they both had sufficient time leading the team it made sense to bring o gara into the team when he was going well off the tee. ireland losing the QF had alot more to do with healy and darcy falling asleep rather than anything o gara or murray did tbh

Rog should have been shown the door at international level about two years before he was - rubbish, sexton was still very inconsistent up until the 2013 lions tour and o gara was needed. o gara was probably on course to go on that tour until he was dropped from the 6N squad (more to do with the poor quality of options other than sexton rather than him playing amazing rugby though)

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208622#Comment_119208622

cian healy and d'arcy missed simple tackles for wales' tries, they were alot bigger parts of the loss than the halfbacks

Teferi

Ronan O'Gara didn't have a snowball's chance in Australia of going on the Lions Tour in 2013.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119209117#Comment_119209117

The fact that we’ve gotten to this after the latest squad announcement is gas

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208712#Comment_119208712

Yeah I think we can see this for what it really is. Kidney gave the side a bump when he started and from there we just got progressively worse year on year. 2011 was a farce. Reddan and Sexton weren’t just the HEC winning half backs, they were the half backs involved in Irelands best performances that year (England and Australia). Yet when the pressure came on Kidney dropped them. I think because the guy simply couldn’t adapt to the changes in the game. He wanted to but was never comfortable with it. Hence the chopping and changing that just turned the whole thing into a media circus and messed about the players themselves.

Under Kidney we had a superb side. And other than 2009 he did nothing with them. Healy at his peak, POC, SOB at his peak, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Sexton at his peak, D’Arcy, BOD, Kearney at his peak. It was genuinely such a waste of 4 years when you look back at it.

clsmooth

Don’t forget Tommy Bowe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203092#Comment_119203092

I thought Murrays introduction against England in the 6N was pivotal to the result. I think JGP is a more optimal choice for the style we're playing but Murray gave us territory in that game which we badly needed.