Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308336#Comment_119308336

The conservative comment was in response to a different poster, who asked me a direct question as to whether or not I felt Ireland were conservative.

I don't understand why Eddie Jones is consistently being touted here too as some sort of visionary head coach. He has oceans of depth and quality to pick from (by comparison to us), and has never really settled on a style of play or a selection. He undermines his players often, sometimes publicly, and tinkers with selection to a crazy degree, making it next to impossible for players to build form or partnerships.

He's a guy who has faced multiple calls in English rugby circles to be sacked, who got the dreaded "full support" kiss of death message from the RFU at the end of the most recent 6N (where his team won 2 games), and who if he loses the next two tests very well might lose his job.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308395#Comment_119308395

How many World Cup finals or grand slams/six nations has Farrell got as a head coach? Farrell is a novice with so much to prove. The IRFU backed an experiment, way more risky than the FAI. AF is a gent and commands respect, and he's one of the greatest ever rugby league players, captain of teams at 16. He's the very definition of dog i spoke about. yet he's a hugely inexperienced head coach. I criticised Schmidt alot but after reading his book recently i kind of changed my stance. i disagree with his tactics and selection but his insights into coaching were eye opening. but that was learned through years of coaching and by being a head coach in NZ schools, Bay of plenty and Leinster.

Jone's is under the kosh,but he's probably finished the natural coaching cycle in pro sport. the days of a coady/ferguson in top level sport is dead.

Farrell is tainted by his involvment in Japan imo. He is getting Stephen Kenny levels of slack, based on not much.

Tomorrow could actually be defining for him given the Sexton debacle (only reason journos aren't going after it are cause of IRFU heavys - Sexton might sue and Irish rugby bans journos like that if you read Joe's book). Just the way you are calling out Jones, the same argument would be made if Jones picked Farrell or whomever after going off concussed. the hubris of people involved in Irish rugby, be it fans, media, ex players , suits, is utterly astounding.

Just irish hubris to poke fun at succesful coaches like gatland and Jones. its why other rugby fans hate us, we think we are the smartest guys in the room. when we have such distinct foibles that clearly show we aren't. AF is just continuing a long line of Irish coaches who has a pre determined team in their head, regardless of the reality.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308419#Comment_119308419

🙄

The comparison between the two in terms of trophies is facetious, given one is 3.5 years into his first head coaching gig, and the other is one of the most experienced coaches in the game.

Andy Farrell has a win ratio in excess of 70%, Jones sits in the mid 50% range.

Are you actually suggesting you would prefer an Eddie Jones approach to Irish selection, with wholesale changes week over week?

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308492#Comment_119308492

uh he won the grand slam one year into his reign. so its not facetious. dismissing coaches like Jones and Gatland is just very Irish imo.

AF has an excellent win ration and took a few scalps with clear caveats. But he has a long way to go. this summer tour, next six nations will be defining for him imo. the wc won't matter its his anyway and we'll do the usual.

No just selctions based on reality and form. HAnsen over RB was one. Coombes not getting a shot is another. look there's not loads. nobody is arguing for wholesale changes. AF is far less concservative a selctor than Schmidt.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307950#Comment_119307950

No-one is suggesting dumping them straight off the bat, that's you putting words in my mouth.

And the flip side if they impress against the Maori the argument is "yes, but it's the Maori" meaning the whole experience was pointless anyway. And in any case its not a simple comparison because you are throwing a 15 that has likely never trained together as a collective until the build up to the match meaning we get no gauge as to how these players will perform in a settled Irish team. Someone like Casey for instance will get a better test of where he's at in a backline with Sexton, Henshaw, Ringrose etc in terms of fulfilling the gameplay than he will playing with a bunch of kids who are inexperienced at this level also.

Our biggest problem is we are incredibly slow and conservative at bringing young players through to the test team, and with all due respect an Irish coaching team is the last coaching team you should be trusting with getting a decision right when it comes to bringing through young players, ive seen enough time over the past 7 or so years that what we perceive works at a RWC when it comes to bringing through players really doesnt and maybe we need another reality check in 2023 before that message comes across, we only have a year to go and we are already lining up our excuses for our inevitable implosion in France rather than fixing the problem when we still have time which again points back to the weak mentality we have as a rugby nation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308537#Comment_119308537

Which Hansen selection are you giving out about here? The one in the 6 Nations?

Yeah, look I was surprised about that at the time too. But the word came out that Hansen had trained the house down in the lead up to that tournament, and therefore earned the selection. Furthermore; when he got in there, he delivered. Ireland won in dominant fashion against Wales, and Hansen was a MotM candidate who had crucial involvements in two tries.

He backed it up a few weeks later with a decent try scoring performance in Paris.

He was then dropped for England, because Farrell went a different way.

I'm far from Hansen's biggest fan or defender btw, I just think this point you're making about his inclusion is mad.

Jordan Larmour is the "establishment" player here if you want to think that way, he came through a private South Dublin school and the Leinster Academy. Mack Hansen is about as much an outsider as you'll get. Farrell just went with the guy who he thought gave him a better chance to win, and in that instance, the decision was utterly vindicated.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308571#Comment_119308571

yeah but thats the point. Larmour was unplayable in his last few games, living up to his hype. Yet Hansen playing in a relatively crap COnnacht side outside of top end games gets to live off games that happened months ago, and comes straight back in over the lad who scored a great try? thats the mad part.

hence Farrell isn't picking on form etc. he has a side and a way of playing set in his mind. Its obvious how Hansen fits into it with the kicking, fielding and inside lines.

its part of a bigger complaint i have. i fully expect Mack Hansen to play on for another 20 games and the ink will be dry on a central deal.

for me its just a shame that Larmour is heading the same way as Conway. only getting the chance to fulfill his talent by the time he is 30. its a travesty imo. and the fact a lad can come in from playing barely any top end rugby is an indictement on our true levels of talent imo.

Larmour has been scapegoated for some weird reason. like Stockdale. we love the boring safe option and send our most talented runners off to sevens and just import the lads instead. genius really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308595#Comment_119308595

Yeah, but there's more to "form" that just what you see in matches. These guys are training virtually every single day and that has an enormous bearing on selection.

There is also the other point I've made earlier; that there is obviously a stylistic difference between the two as well, that may be a big factor in the selection too.

I really don't believe Jordan Larmour has been scapegoated or anything of the sort. He spent whole chunks of this season injured and unavailable for selection.

When Andy Farrell first got the Irish job, he picked Larmour at full back in the first three 6N games in 2020, so clearly he was willing to back his talent and give him an opportunity. The main obstacles to Larmour's development since then have been injury, and somewhat patchy form, which has been exacerbated by the injuries.

Dubinusa

It's true Larmour has been unlucky with injury. Similar to Balacoune and Conway. It's a constant issue with these boys.

Hansen playing is not a bad look. He's a good player. In the long run, I reckon Balacoune locks down the 14 shirt. Conway will have a fight on his hands to win it back. Larmour with his obvious weakness will probably bench.

Farrell is picking the players that he believes can win. I disagree with a couple of selections and the opportunity to get lads into quality matches won't probably happen on this tour. Farrell is chasing a win in N.Z, that's what's important to him. For the world cup though, it's not smart. If Sexton is out injured or his form falls of a cliff, we're buggered. I think it's a mistake not to start Carberry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309375#Comment_119309375

Yeah, Baloucoune is the guy I'm really hoping comes through and makes the jersey his own by the RWC. Just need him to stay healthy. He's such an incredible game breaker with his speed, acceleration and stepping ability. Think he would offer us something we've never really had in our backline before, in any Irish team in the pro era.

I agree on Sexton for this weekend. I think it's just a really bad look.

Itxa

Has this board suddenly been taken over by miscreants. I’ve been wading through pages of sludge for around the last two weeks and I’ve learned nothing. Literally, turning off posters one by one.

starkid

oh shut up

Itxa

I’m delighted to see youth coming through and standing up to the oldies and expressing their opinion but the word hijacked comes to mind.

AbusesToilets

On a different note, I thought we used grubbers and chips really effectively last weekend. It's a good sign of the team taking steps to counter the aggressive defensive rush that's caused problems this season.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310470#Comment_119310470

Completely agree. I think there were maybe 3 bounces we were unlucky with as well, that could’ve lead to more.

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310470#Comment_119310470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310576#Comment_119310576

Do I recall correctly that Dan Sheehan was behind one of those grubbers? I remember thinking, 'is there anything this guy can't do?'

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304250#Comment_119304250

In essence they were crap?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310672#Comment_119310672

Even POM put one in after a jackal, but that seemed more off the cuff, play what’s in front of you, than pre-meditated. Definitely good to see tho.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-all-blacks-3-5811443-Jul2022/

I think this piece is fair.

A lot of players & Andy Farrell coming under a lot of criticism in recent times for the issues we're facing in the scrum and the line out, but maybe the coaching duo of O'Connell and Fogarty deserve to have some questions asked of them at the moment too.

O'Connell rightfully got a lot of plaudits when he came in early 2021 and seemed to bring about a significant improvement in our line out and maul, but that has to go both ways surely?

Obviously there were some lineouts last week that looked like just poor execution from the players, and that's not exactly on the coaches. Sheehan has struggles out of touch (he was abysmal for Leinster against the Bulls, probably costing them that game), but there were numerous examples where it seemed the lack of motion and deception made it altogether too easy for the AB's to get someone up and pressure us.

TRC10

So Sam Prendergast has been going very well for the 20s this summer and looks like a very handy player. He's just signed an academy deal with Leinster and that's great business by Leinster. He looks a serious prospect and good on them for snapping him up, when no doubt other provinces would have had an eye on him.

But I bring this up, because it's a good example of a big issue I see in the Irish system.

If Prendergast was French or English, he'd probably be playing regularly next season for a Top14, Premiership or Pro D2 club, getting regular minutes under his belt at a critical stage in his development, learning his trade, getting opportunities every week to make mistakes and learn from them and develop as a player. But at Leinster, he'll be stuck behind Sexton, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Frawley and possibly Tector and he'll do well make one URC appearance off the bench if he's lucky.

This is absolutely not a criticism of Leinster. Their only responsibility is to themselves and to create as strong a squad as they can to challenge for trophies. But you have to ask questions of the system we have in place here in Ireland. Prendergast probably won't play 10 games in a season until he's 23. I look at Jack Crowley, who burst onto the scene with the 20s two and a half years ago and he's almost 23.....he's started 5 games. 5 games in two and a half years for one of the top young prospects in the country. It's no wonder he hasn't developed at all. How is this making the best of our resources? Imagine how many games he'd have played if he went to LAR.

The current England u20s out half Fin Smith, has already played 30 games for Worcester. The French u20 out half Leo Barré, has already played 29 games for Stade Francais. Our outstanding u20 out half from TWO YEARS AGO, has played 15 games. I'll say that again....15 GAMES IN TWO AND A HALF YEARS!. Prendergast will be lucky to have played 15 games by the time he's 23.

If the IRFU are going to allow the likes of Billy Burns and Ross Byrne to be starting every week (which is fine, I've no issue with that, their provinces seem to trust them, they should be allowed to use them) then we need to start allowing players to go abroad. Because we're just wasting so much talent by having them sit in the stands for the most crucial years of their development, when they need to be playing games.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310771#Comment_119310771

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly it I think.

I'm a bit baffled though as to why Prendergast himself couldn't see the queue he's joining at Leinster. Obviously when you're 19 you think you're bulletproof, but you'd have thought a potential move to Connacht, where his brother is starring and the queue is much more manageable behind Carty (Conor Fitzgerald and Cathal Forde) would have made a lot of sense.

AbusesToilets

I know the counterpoint is the better coaching available at leinster. You can see how Carbery has suffered from the comparatively poor set up in Munster. It's a pity their isn't either an u20 URC league or an established loan system for players like Prendergast et al.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310807#Comment_119310807

You'd have hoped he'd have had better people advising him.

Ulster would have made a tonne of sense. They don't have any real prospects at 10 coming through (AFAIK). Madigan has never been a very good 10 and is getting on a bit now. Burns is good at URC level and ok at European level. But with regular game time you could definitely see Prendergast challenging him within one or two seasons playing 2nd fiddle.

At Leinster, realistically he probably won't make an appearance until 23/24. Prendergast is a year younger than Fin Smith, who is Worcester's starting 10. And Prendergast looks a better player. Yet Smith will have 100 appearances before Prendergast has 20. I just don't get it. He's basically setting his career back 3 years. He should be playing regularly next season. And it's no wonder we've f*ck all options at 10 the way we do things.

Yeah, it kind of echoes the situation O'Gara talked about a few years ago with Jack Crowley. If a situation like that was on the table for guys like Tector or Prendergast, you'd think it would work well, but it seems the IRFU would oppose such a move.

I never like seeing talented players leave Leinster, but realistically it benefits no one to stock them up either and not have guys developing.

Notwithstanding the huge level of attrition we experience in the back row, I'm genuinely a little baffled why Max Deegan signed a new contract in Feb. I know guys feel they're developing better under the Leinster coaching ticket, but there is just such a huge queue of talent there and he's already been hopscotched by a younger Caelan Doris. I think the likes of James Culhane will be pushing a couple of years too. Deegan would have been better off moving to another Irish province and playing more regularly.

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310892#Comment_119310892

Flannery is moving to Ulster this summer from Munster. I assume Sam Prendergast's focus next year will be the Irish under 20s, I believe he has another year.

salmocab

Maybe it shows something that a guy is willing to back himself at a place with more competition. There are posters who move half the backrows in Leinster out every year and the players more often than not don’t actually go, something is keeping them there and I doubt it’s the promise of 2 or 3 URC run outs.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310962#Comment_119310962

Flannery is another example of a guy who's wasted his key development years. He's 23 now and has barely developed at all since 20s because he's hardly played any rugby since. He's leaving now because he's 23 and 4th choice but he should have done it years ago. He's not now going to go to Ulster and suddenly develop into a class player and take over from Burns, his key development years are behind him.

And I just feel like Prendergast will go down the exact same path as Flannery and Crowley. He needs to be playing senior rugby next season week in, week out, wherever that may be. Not wasting his key development years sitting in the stands and playing the odd A game.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310978#Comment_119310978

Yeah, that's fair, and over recent years there has typically been at least one player gone to a relatively long term injury at any given time.

That said though, you can't argue that guys like Scott Penny or Max Deegan, to name just two examples are maximising their potential. It's not unfair or unjustified, they're both behind top class players, but for Penny he's not playing big European games already, and it just gets worse if Will Connors is back and back to his best.

Yeah, Penny is just turning 23 this year and has already played a respectable 41 times for Leinster, but he has to feel in the next season that he's seriously in contention for the big European or interpro XVs, otherwise he surely won't renew again.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310771#Comment_119310771

I think I'd be in favour of IQ players at any URC team being considered for Ireland selection, and maybe come World Cup time players in England and France as well (maybe NZ too, who knows).

Clegg

Lots and lots and lots of egg on face here.

Love to see it.

Ireland are a genuinely good team with some issues imposing their game plan. Sometimes we lack accuracy in attack and make panicked decisions. But the skills required to win matches are there. Solid rucking and tackle technique as well as good discipline sees us dominate possession and territory in most games.