Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Paul Smeenus

Lads - "far" too good. Don't do him down.

El_Duderino 09

Clegg wrote: »

I think the league is generally of a poor quality anyway. It's not hard for a decent player to look a cut above most. And I think Byrne does look that already.

The big issue is he's untested against anything more than ok-ish opposition. It was the same story with Doris who has, happily, now made the step up to become a high level test player. I suppose it's more difficult for a fly half as they have the responsibility of managing the entire attacking side of the team.

I genuinely think Harry Byrne has hit the ceiling of what can be done in the league however. Needs to be playing against a far higher level of opposition to improve his game now.

I'd like to see him play behind a pack that is being beaten. The leister pack in the pro14 generally has parity and is usually dominant. The comment that HB is too good for Pro14 is obviously guff, but he would benefit from a different set of experiences. The Scarlets game was good because he had to deal with the Scarlets rush defence. But ultimately he will need to play against better opposition, and behind a retreating pack, to build on his skills.

Tommybojangles

Buer wrote: »

Last weekend was Harry Byrne's best game for Leinster. He looked very composed and the less flashy elements of his game were excellent. His restarts were world class and his line kicking was very solid. His decision making was very tidy too without ever forcing anything or playing unnecessary risks.

But he looked far more raw in his showings earlier in the season. He showed flashes of quality with some fairly questionale decision making at times where he was forcing things. He's obviously worked during his break and appears a more rounded player right now.

I think it's extremely premature to say that the 21 year old outhalf with 9 starts to his name is far too good for regular league games. That's exactly what he should be getting now and using every single minute to develop and build his confidence. Ideally, he gets a start in Belfast this season with little enough on the line and faces a tougher level of opposition.

If he comes through all of those tests, I'd like to see him brought on the summer tour (if it proceeds which is unlikely). But I don't think he's going to leaping into big games for Leinster any time soon. He'll be drip fed in gradually in the same way his brother was, I reckon.

This post so was so reasonable and sounded like it came from a normal person I had to do a double check I was still on the Internet

Squidgy Black

I for one think Harry Byrne should take over from Tony Holohan, he's far too good to be just pulling the strings in a pro14 match when he could be pulling the strings in getting the virus under control.

leakyboots

Some of our blue-tinted brethren appear to not have had enough avocados lately or something Leave Harry Byrne (or whatever new academy prospect who puts in a decent performance) develop at their own pace and stop anointing them with ridiculous accolades.

When's the team announced? Very interested to see the backrow makeup

irishbucsfan

How many Pro 14 games has even Harry Byrne started?!

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How many Pro 14 games has even Harry Byrne started?!

you must have Buer on your ignore list then.....

;)

Buer

Tommybojangles wrote: »

This post so was so reasonable and sounded like it came from a normal person

Ah, you must be new here.

thomond2006

Tommybojangles wrote: »

This post so was so reasonable and sounded like it came from a normal person I had to do a double check I was still on the Internet

Please don't encourage it. The less Buerism you read, the better.

Dave_The_Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

you must have Buer on your ignore list then.....

;)

I mean, who doesn't at this stage?

Paul Smeenus

It says something that the sane, sober, measured posts on the board might refer to a part of a 21 year old's performance as "world class".

And I'm saying that as someone who read Buer's post and thought "ah, a bit of perspective".

mfceiling

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

It says something that the sane, sober, measured posts on the board might refer to a part of a 21 year old's performance as "world class".

And I'm saying that as someone who read Buer's post and thought "ah, a bit of perspective".

More like a bit of buerspective....


I'll get my own coat.

errlloyd

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

It says something that the sane, sober, measured posts on the board might refer to a part of a 21 year old's performance as "world class".

Ridiculously niche part of the game to be fair.

Paul Smeenus

mfceiling wrote: »

More like a bit of buerspective....


I'll get my own coat.

ULSTER FAN SEZ: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

irishbucsfan

To be fair Leinster could limit all their young stars at 10 starts before they graduate to “international world class genus” status and it would only put moderate pressure on the production line

jacothelad

mfceiling wrote: »

Jesus not on here Clegg. We've produced some great backs over the last few years but you'd be hard pushed to find any Ulster fans hyping a player with only a few starts to the level of "he's too good for the league"!!

Clegg, it's awfully early to be on the cooking sherry, But. yes, young Harry is so far 'too good' for the league that Leinster rarely unleash him on the poor opponents he destroys.

jacothelad

aloooof wrote: »

You could have a 'hyperbole of the day' competition on here at the moment. And it'd be close.

I think we could create a Trophy for it. The Golden Arse. That one would win Arsebiscuit of the season.

stephen_n

It’s funny that a lot of posters who say, most league games apart from the inter-pro’s are just glorified training games for Leinster. Can find that comment so hard to reconcile. Maybe it plays into preconceived notions.

Niallof9

Is it any wonder Irish rugby has issues at the best of times when we get our knickers in a twist over bringing in a 21 year old. HB will most likely be brought in next year as his obvious talent continues to peak its head through more and more, particularly as Sexton naturally declines. Ross isn;t good enough.

The conservatism of people on here and in Irish rugby would do your head in sometimes.

Its funny most of the hyperbole comes from those that protest too much. Its completely overstated how young HB is.

Romain Ntamack is 21. Finn Russell was 22. Ford was 21. Biggar was 19.

We have an issue in this country with conservatism. It pervades into many things. Rugby is one of them. At times we let it loose capping a young Luke or whoever at other times we're bringing a finished fullback and a 37 year old hooker to a World Cup. We'll see the same story now with Sexton.

Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland squad. Its as simple as that. Not picking him, is just kicking the can down the road.

Maybe we'll even see him this season as AF will come under huge pressure if we lose a few games. The only way to calm that would be picking a few lads against Italy or Scotland. Clearly the bubble thing is overstated given they trained against Ulster.

Speaking of Luke. He thinks its ours to lose. Now there's hyperbole.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

Is it any wonder Irish rugby has issues at the best of times when we get our knickers in a twist over bringing in a 21 year old. HB will most likely be brought in next year as his obvious talent continues to peak its head through more and more, particularly as Sexton naturally declines. Ross isn;t good enough.

The conservatism of people on here and in Irish rugby would do your head in sometimes.

Its funny most of the hyperbole comes from those that protest too much. Its completely overstated how young HB is.

Romain Ntamack is 21. Finn Russell was 22. Ford was 21. Biggar was 19.

We have an issue in this country with conservatism. It pervades into many things. Rugby is one of them. At times we let it loose capping a young Luke or whoever at other times we're bringing a finished fullback and a 37 year old hooker to a World Cup. We'll see the same story now with Sexton.

Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland squad. Its as simple as that. Not picking him, is just kicking the can down the road.

Maybe we'll even see him this season as AF will come under huge pressure if we lose a few games. The only way to calm that would be picking a few lads against Italy or Scotland. Clearly the bubble thing is overstated given they trained against Ulster.

Speaking of Luke. He thinks its ours to lose. Now there's hyperbole.

I think most people accept that Harry Byrne will play for Ireland in the near future.

But he is currently third choice for his province. All the others you mention were first choice for their club or at least fighting for first choice when they made the six nations team.

I dont think its conservatism holding back Harry Byrne's selection for Ireland. He needs to force himself into the team for Leinster first.

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

I think most people accept that Harry Byrne will play for Ireland in the near future.

But he is currently third choice for his province. All the others you mention were first choice for their club or at least fighting for first choice when they made the six nations team.

I dont think its conservatism holding back Harry Byrne's selection for Ireland. He needs to force himself into the team for Leinster first.

This is the usual reply on here. The player needs to demand the jersey...

We're in a chicken and egg situation. Its nearly impossible to do that when the incumbent is who he is. We have a long history of out halves in Ireland putting in their dues...Sexton himself, more so with Leinster and O'Gara before him. Picked probably two years later than they should have been. Its not only out halves it applies to many of the squad. And there's a multitude of reasons.

I'd say all three of those players i mentioned were given their go before establishing themselves. They established themselves due to being picked early.

We need ruthlessness here. Harry Byrne is now where near good enough for international level.

Anyway i'd say if we lose this weekend Farrell will be under massive pressure. And we'll see some wildcards by the end, HB included.

Also, i understand outhalf is completely different than any other position but why weren't people saying these things about Keenan or Connors say. They played one Euro game before Nov. Why do we set different parameters for each player? We wasted the November window, i kind of hope the 6 nations goes tits up as maybe it will stand to us better in the long run if we need to do a Scotland 2000 2.0

realhorrorshow

Niallof9 wrote: »

Is it any wonder Irish rugby has issues at the best of times when we get our knickers in a twist over bringing in a 21 year old. HB will most likely be brought in next year as his obvious talent continues to peak its head through more and more, particularly as Sexton naturally declines. Ross isn;t good enough.

The conservatism of people on here and in Irish rugby would do your head in sometimes.

Its funny most of the hyperbole comes from those that protest too much. Its completely overstated how young HB is.

Romain Ntamack is 21. Finn Russell was 22. Ford was 21. Biggar was 19.

We have an issue in this country with conservatism. It pervades into many things. Rugby is one of them. At times we let it loose capping a young Luke or whoever at other times we're bringing a finished fullback and a 37 year old hooker to a World Cup. We'll see the same story now with Sexton.

Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland squad. Its as simple as that. Not picking him, is just kicking the can down the road.

Maybe we'll even see him this season as AF will come under huge pressure if we lose a few games. The only way to calm that would be picking a few lads against Italy or Scotland. Clearly the bubble thing is overstated given they trained against Ulster.

Speaking of Luke. He thinks its ours to lose. Now there's hyperbole.

The thing is players in other countries are exposed to club rugby earlier either due to there being more clubs (England, France), less talent (Wales, Scotland), or a constant drain of top talent to other countries (the SH). It's quite hard to get significant professional minutes in Ireland.

arsebiscuits1

Unsure if it was news already but just cropped up in my feed.

We have Barnes as ref this weekend. Excellent news.

Still think he's comfortably the best in the business

Niallof9

realhorrorshow wrote: »

The thing is players in other countries are exposed to club rugby earlier either due to there being more clubs (England, France), less talent (Wales, Scotland), or a constant drain of top talent to other countries (the SH). It's quite hard to get significant professional minutes in Ireland.

yeah i don't disagree there, and i've argued this point on here before. thats one of the weaknesses of Irish rugby. Its often dressed up as a strength. Then you add CC to the mix and voila you have the situation we find ourselves in. I suppose Joey's injury was terrible timing. Perhaps we would have seen a ROG/Sexton handover.

thegreycity

realhorrorshow wrote: »

The thing is players in other countries are exposed to club rugby earlier either due to there being more clubs (England, France), less talent (Wales, Scotland), or a constant drain of top talent to other countries (the SH). It's quite hard to get significant professional minutes in Ireland.

This is a great point about why the Irish set up need to be even more on the ball than other countries in spotting and bringing through young talent. The opportunities at provincial level to prove themselves are more limited.

realhorrorshow

thegreycity wrote: »

This is a great point about why the Irish set up need to be even more on the ball than other countries in spotting and bringing through young talent. The opportunities at provincial level to prove themselves are more limited.

I guess it would be possible to introduce the most talented young players to the NT straight out of their u20 season regardless of their experience at club level. But the national coach is judged on results, and any would be understandably hesitant to put their faith in a young player until he sees them consistently perform at provincial level.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

This is the usual reply on here. The player needs to demand the jersey...

We're in a chicken and egg situation. Its nearly impossible to do that when the incumbent is who he is. We have a long history of out halves in Ireland putting in their dues...Sexton himself, more so with Leinster and O'Gara before him. Picked probably two years later than they should have been. Its not only out halves it applies to many of the squad. And there's a multitude of reasons.

I'd say all three of those players i mentioned were given their go before establishing themselves. They established themselves due to being picked early.

We need ruthlessness here. Harry Byrne is now where near good enough for international level.

Anyway i'd say if we lose this weekend Farrell will be under massive pressure. And we'll see some wildcards by the end, HB included.

Also, i understand outhalf is completely different than any other position but why weren't people saying these things about Keenan or Connors say. They played one Euro game before Nov. Why do we set different parameters for each player? We wasted the November window, i kind of hope the 6 nations goes tits up as maybe it will stand to us better in the long run if we need to do a Scotland 2000 2.0

What's your 23 for the Wales game, Niall?

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

But he is currently third choice for his province. All the others you mention were first choice for their club or at least fighting for first choice when they made the six nations team.

Niallof9 wrote: »

This is the usual reply on here. The player needs to demand the jersey...

We're in a chicken and egg situation. Its nearly impossible to do that when the incumbent is who he is. We have a long history of out halves in Ireland putting in their dues...Sexton himself, more so with Leinster and O'Gara before him. Picked probably two years later than they should have been. Its not only out halves it applies to many of the squad. And there's a multitude of reasons.

I didn't say he needed to demand the jersey. But i don't think being third choice for Leinster puts you in line for an Irish start. If he was so great and capable of starting for Ireland he would be ahead of Ross for Leinster. For me its that simple.

The other players you mentioned were maybe not established in the first team but they were fighting for first choice. Harry isn't currently doing that. Its understandable given who the incumbent is but he does need to be the solid second choice.

realhorrorshow

Romain N'tamack, as an example, had played 28 senior club games (including 4 starts in the CC) before making his France debut at 19. It's a lot easier for a national coach to pick a guy with that body of work.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

What's your 23 for the Wales game, Niall?

Ah i'd probably go with the same. Maybe Larmour for Stockdale. Leave Porter at TH. I mean a really tough opening match. Win it sets us up nicely.

Was there an injury?

And yeah i take the point about N'tamack. But if Carbery comes back the issue will become a mess perhaps. Healy and HB will be twiddling their thumbs. Its at times like this four provinces hinder us sometimes. Particularly when one (Connacht) doesn't take the best underused talent it can/or players refuse to go there, whichever it is.