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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen
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France has 14 top tier clubs. Ireland has 4.
It's much easier for France to pick a bolter who has 20-25 starts under his belt as there are more starting jobs to go around.0 -
I don't think there are massive limitations on guys being able to get game time at provincial level in Ireland. The Pro14 is sometimes treated as a development league by the provinces. Look at some of the guys who have been starting games this season:
Harry Byrne (21)
Ben Healy (21)
Max O'Reilly (20)
Andrew Smith (20)
Tom Clarkson (20)
Thomas Ahern (20)
Keynan Knox (21)
Josh Wycherley (21)
Craig Casey (21)
Stewart Moore (21)
David McCann (20)
Ethan McIlroy (20)
What people always ignore when pointlessly comparing Irish development to development in places like England or France is that there is a completely different level of interaction between clubs and schoolkids in those countries. For example, Saracens begin their identification process at U13 level and bringing players into a development structure at that age. By U15 level, they are having weekly training sessions with Saracens as well as a separate session in the Saracens HPC once a week (they've already been developing their S&C since U13). These guys are physically read to play with grown adults when they're 19 or 20 years old which is why it's more commonplace.
Irish players don't have that level of interaction with provinces or the IRFU from such an early stage. Yes there are development squads and they are in contact with their regional branches during their schooling to mould their talent but nothing to the same level. They leave school completely unprepared to be involved in senior professional rugby. Anyone only needs to look at Max O'Reilly for a second to see that he's half the size of an established professional outside back.0 -
This is the usual reply on here. The player needs to demand the jersey...
We're in a chicken and egg situation. Its nearly impossible to do that when the incumbent is who he is. We have a long history of out halves in Ireland putting in their dues...Sexton himself, more so with Leinster and O'Gara before him. Picked probably two years later than they should have been. Its not only out halves it applies to many of the squad. And there's a multitude of reasons.
I'd say all three of those players i mentioned were given their go before establishing themselves. They established themselves due to being picked early.
We need ruthlessness here. Harry Byrne is now where near good enough for international level.
Anyway i'd say if we lose this weekend Farrell will be under massive pressure. And we'll see some wildcards by the end, HB included.
Also, i understand outhalf is completely different than any other position but why weren't people saying these things about Keenan or Connors say. They played one Euro game before Nov. Why do we set different parameters for each player? We wasted the November window, i kind of hope the 6 nations goes tits up as maybe it will stand to us better in the long run if we need to do a Scotland 2000 2.0
Harry Byrne simply isn't good enough at the moment. He's still mostly hype. He's had a few starts for Leinster and he's been decent but has had some games where he hasn't been as good as Ross Byrne. I've been more impressed with Frawley tbh. Plenty of other players got into the Ireland squad at a young age because they were good enough. Simply as that.0 -
Wales are without Liam Williams and Josh Adams due to disciplinary issues, but they also appear to be in the midst of an injury crisis as well. George North is rumoured to be starting in the centres with Hallam Amos on the wing. There's also a lot of rumours about their second rows only being half fit. AWJ is training with the side but nowhere near 100% apparently.0
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I don't think there are massive limitations on guys being able to get game time at provincial level in Ireland. The Pro14 is sometimes treated as a development league by the provinces. Look at some of the guys who have been starting games this season:
Harry Byrne (21)
Ben Healy (21)
Max O'Reilly (20)
Andrew Smith (20)
Tom Clarkson (20)
Thomas Ahern (20)
Keynan Knox (21)
Josh Wycherley (21)
Craig Casey (21)
Stewart Moore (21)
David McCann (20)
Ethan McIlroy (20)
What people always ignore when pointlessly comparing Irish development to development in places like England or France is that there is a completely different level of interaction between clubs and schoolkids in those countries. For example, Saracens begin their identification process at U13 level and bringing players into a development structure at that age. By U15 level, they are having weekly training sessions with Saracens as well as a separate session in the Saracens HPC once a week (they've already been developing their S&C since U13). These guys are physically read to play with grown adults when they're 19 or 20 years old which is why it's more commonplace.
Irish players don't have that level of interaction with provinces or the IRFU from such an early stage. Yes there are development squads and they are in contact with their regional branches during their schooling to mould their talent but nothing to the same level. They leave school completely unprepared to be involved in senior professional rugby. Anyone only needs to look at Max O'Reilly for a second to see that he's half the size of an established professional outside back.
yeah on the last point is anybody else worried about some of the size of the backs being produced? or are their skills which are much higher going to make up for it? And then we get the bigger lads, bar Frawley, kind of looked at like its not enough - a Sean french for example. I'd think we're going down the wrong path in this regard, same thing with the forwards. Thinking somehow we can do it differently with smaller body shapes.
Harry Byrne is clearly good enough. He's a better player than Harry. Its an open and shut case. He'll be involved with Ireland again soon enough anyhow.0 -
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realhorrorshow wrote: »I guess it would be possible to introduce the most talented young players to the NT straight out of their u20 season regardless of their experience at club level. But the national coach is judged on results, and any would be understandably hesitant to put their faith in a young player until he sees them consistently perform at provincial level.
young players shouldnt be teething their careers in the national team, unless its a once in a generation player like BOD or James Ryan.
There absolutely should be better working relationships with foreign clubs which open paths for young players to gain experience playing top level.
I can see the focus and aim for the IRFU however.
they want a player in each position vying for an irish shirt... so lets take 10 for example.
Sexton has been the main stay for over a decade now... so test level player in Leinster *check*
Carbery was moved to Munster at a time he was the best pretender for sextons position... so test level player in Munster *check*
They brought in Billy Burns to ulster to replace a NIQ (Lealiifano) after the P Jackson affair and currently Billy appears to be the closest replacement for sexton... Burns is more consistent than Carty and has an arguable higher skillset than R Byrne.. so test level player at ulster? a reserved *check*
Jack Carty has been given plenty of chances in a green shirt but unfortunately has blown hot and cold and isnt consistent enough to demand a squad place.... so although a lot of connacht fans may disagree... is there a test level 10 at connacht? i have to say no.
Now we come on to Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy, Ian Madigan etc.
so at ulster we have aback up 10 who has played test rugby and has 31 ireland caps... no small feat.... has big game temperment and is a bit of a utility player. Behind him again is M Lowry, a 22 yo with 35 ulster caps....So Ulster are in a good place.
Carberys injury woes are well publicised at this stage, but when he comes back it will be like another marquee signing for munster. Ben Healy is currently getting invaluable game time which can only help his development, and behind him there is a great prospect in Crowley. JJ Hanrahan is the obvious blocker here, but while Joey is injured JJ is a very valuable player to have. However id imagine his future lies elsewhere. But munster currently have 4 decent 10s, so they are in a good place.
Carty is unmoveable at connacht. The only way he will be moved is if he isnt offered a contract renewal but i think thats unlikely. Fitzgerald behind him seems a decent prospect and Dean is still very wet behind the ears. Connacht certainly need a better challenger for Carty, especially if he finds himself out of the ireland squad. So there is a position open there for a Crowley / Hawkshaw type IMHO, to get more game time experience.
Leinster have an aging sexton who realistically wont be there in 2 years time, perhaps sooner. Behind him is Ross Byrne, who is incredibly consistent without ever lighting up the stage. With 11 caps already and plenty of big game experience he is a very valuable leinster squad member, if not a long term Ireland prospect. Harry Byrne is a tremendous prospect, and if his trajectory stays on course he should be the Ireland 10 after sexton. In 2 years time he will be 23 and i would imagine will have passed out his brother at Leinster.
however he currently has just 9 starts for leinster. Does Harry Byrne see his medium to long term future best placed at Leinster, im sure he absolutely does. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that in 1 year time Harry Byrne will be the starting out half for Leinster in Europe. We saw how quickly ROGs form dropped when he reached his twilight, and personally i have seen enough evidence with sexton over the last 18 months to suggest the same could happen very quickly for him.
comparisons with biggar are a bit disingenuous as biggar only ever had to oust shaun connor as the ospreys 10, and J hook was either injured, with the national side, or covering other positions. Biggar had 100 ospreys caps by the time he was 22. Luckily none of our provinces are in such dire need. So when it came to the point of Biggar making his wales debut he had amassed 5 heineken cup caps.
so TL;DR... our provinces are in rude health for out halves, and the prospects looking forward are very good.
at ireland however, there is obviously limited space. The best players for their provinces, playing and succeeding at the highest levels of competition should be the ones taking up these limited positions. There is nothing (apart from covid) stopping ireland bringing in Harry Byrne / Craig Casey / ryan baird types as apprentices for training, and they have done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future.0 -
Ya it pretty much goes back to irish clubs have to be dominant because we're picking a squad from 4 teams..england could pick 2 players from a lot of average teams in theory and still be strong. Now I accept that generally england/france are strong when they have club teams but it's much much more important for us to have at least 2-3 provinces competing at a high level in the chanpions cup0
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thomond2006 wrote: »France has 14 top tier clubs. Ireland has 4.
It's much easier for France to pick a bolter who has 20-25 starts under his belt as there are more starting jobs to go around.
this is exactly it... did he have 2 internationals ahead of him at Toulouse?0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »young players shouldnt be teething their careers in the national team, unless its a once in a generation player like BOD or James Ryan.
There absolutely should be better working relationships with foreign clubs which open paths for young players to gain experience playing top level.
I can see the focus and aim for the IRFU however.
they want a player in each position vying for an irish shirt... so lets take 10 for example.
Sexton has been the main stay for over a decade now... so test level player in Leinster *check*
Carbery was moved to Munster at a time he was the best pretender for sextons position... so test level player in Munster *check*
They brought in Billy Burns to ulster to replace a NIQ (Lealiifano) after the P Jackson affair and currently Billy appears to be the closest replacement for sexton... Burns is more consistent than Carty and has an arguable higher skillset than R Byrne.. so test level player at ulster? a reserved *check*
Jack Carty has been given plenty of chances in a green shirt but unfortunately has blown hot and cold and isnt consistent enough to demand a squad place.... so although a lot of connacht fans may disagree... is there a test level 10 at connacht? i have to say no.
Now we come on to Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy, Ian Madigan etc.
so at ulster we have aback up 10 who has played test rugby and has 31 ireland caps... no small feat.... has big game temperment and is a bit of a utility player. Behind him again is M Lowry, a 22 yo with 35 ulster caps....So Ulster are in a good place.
Carberys injury woes are well publicised at this stage, but when he comes back it will be like another marquee signing for munster. Ben Healy is currently getting invaluable game time which can only help his development, and behind him there is a great prospect in Crowley. JJ Hanrahan is the obvious blocker here, but while Joey is injured JJ is a very valuable player to have. However id imagine his future lies elsewhere. But munster currently have 4 decent 10s, so they are in a good place.
Carty is unmoveable at connacht. The only way he will be moved is if he isnt offered a contract renewal but i think thats unlikely. Fitzgerald behind him seems a decent prospect and Dean is still very wet behind the ears. Connacht certainly need a better challenger for Carty, especially if he finds himself out of the ireland squad. So there is a position open there for a Crowley / Hawkshaw type IMHO, to get more game time experience.
Leinster have an aging sexton who realistically wont be there in 2 years time, perhaps sooner. Behind him is Ross Byrne, who is incredibly consistent without ever lighting up the stage. With 11 caps already and plenty of big game experience he is a very valuable leinster squad member, if not a long term Ireland prospect. Harry Byrne is a tremendous prospect, and if his trajectory stays on course he should be the Ireland 10 after sexton. In 2 years time he will be 23 and i would imagine will have passed out his brother at Leinster.
however he currently has just 9 starts for leinster. Does Harry Byrne see his medium to long term future best placed at Leinster, im sure he absolutely does. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that in 1 year time Harry Byrne will be the starting out half for Leinster in Europe. We saw how quickly ROGs form dropped when he reached his twilight, and personally i have seen enough evidence with sexton over the last 18 months to suggest the same could happen very quickly for him.
comparisons with biggar are a bit disingenuous as biggar only ever had to oust shaun connor as the ospreys 10, and J hook was either injured, with the national side, or covering other positions. Biggar had 100 ospreys caps by the time he was 22. Luckily none of our provinces are in such dire need. So when it came to the point of Biggar making his wales debut he had amassed 5 heineken cup caps.
so TL;DR... our provinces are in rude health for out halves, and the prospects looking forward are very good.
at ireland however, there is obviously limited space. The best players for their provinces, playing and succeeding at the highest levels of competition should be the ones taking up these limited positions. There is nothing (apart from covid) stopping ireland bringing in Harry Byrne / Craig Casey / ryan baird types as apprentices for training, and they have done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Whether you like Carty or not as a player for Ireland, he has had one competitive start for Ireland. The coaches threw him under the bus for the Japan game when the whole team was going backwards including the senior players. Not sure that’s a fair comparison when you look at Burns and Byrne who have had just as many chances. I don’t have a problem with either of them over him, but the chances argument is weak and untrue from a game time POV.
He spent about 2 months in 2019 trying to get some form back after the pile on from the media with his confidence battered and then he was starting to motor before COVID hit. He also had to sit out the 2019 winter interpros because of RWC when he said himself that needed games. Other than Bristol and Cardiff this season, he has not had a bad performance from open play. His goal kicking is fair game for accusations of inconsistency but open play is untrue IMO.0 -
What people always ignore when pointlessly comparing Irish development to development in places like England or France is that there is a completely different level of interaction between clubs and schoolkids in those countries. For example, Saracens begin their identification process at U13 level and bringing players into a development structure at that age. By U15 level, they are having weekly training sessions with Saracens as well as a separate session in the Saracens HPC once a week (they've already been developing their S&C since U13). These guys are physically read to play with grown adults when they're 19 or 20 years old which is why it's more commonplace.
Irish players don't have that level of interaction with provinces or the IRFU from such an early stage. Yes there are development squads and they are in contact with their regional branches during their schooling to mould their talent but nothing to the same level. They leave school completely unprepared to be involved in senior professional rugby. Anyone only needs to look at Max O'Reilly for a second to see that he's half the size of an established professional outside back.
That’s not entirely true, my nephew had trials at under 14 with Leinster. Has weekly (had up on till Covid) training sessions at the high performance unit in Donnybrook. As well as S&C, dietary advice etc. from Leinster. There seems to be an illusion that the Provinces don’t engage with a young age and just stand back to let the schools produce. That’s absolutely not the case in Leinster anyway.0 -
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Its not the case in any of the provinces. The screening process starts at u15 level in all the provinces. Very surprised its changed to 14s.That’s not entirely true, my nephew had trials at under 14 with Leinster. Has weekly (had up on till Covid) training sessions at the high performance unit in Donnybrook. As well as S&C, dietary advice etc. from Leinster. There seems to be an illusion that the Provinces don’t engage with a young age and just stand back to let the schools produce. That’s absolutely not the case in Leinster anyway.
The development set up starts at 15s with training squads for players getting additional training/work on top of what they do in their school and/or club.
Very few actually think the provinces dont engage from early age. But other sides in other countries do work with players a lot more like the english academies.0 -
Whether you like Carty or not as a player for Ireland, he has had one competitive start for Ireland. The coaches threw him under the bus for the Japan game when the whole team was going backwards including the senior players. Not sure that’s a fair comparison when you look at Burns and Byrne who have had just as many chances. I don’t have a problem with either of them over him, but the chances argument is weak and untrue from a game time POV.
He spent about 2 months in 2019 trying to get some form back after the pile on from the media with his confidence battered and then he was starting to motor before COVID hit. He also had to sit out the 2019 winter interpros because of RWC when he said himself that needed games. Other than Bristol and Cardiff this season, he has not had a bad performance from open play. His goal kicking is fair game for accusations of inconsistency but open play is untrue IMO.
My opinion is not a slight on Carty, but a comment of the level i think hes at. On his day he can be as good as any of our 10s currently, but he does have issues with consistency.
He wasnt "thrown under the bus" against Japan. Thats simply hyperbolic nonsense. he was easily one of our better players that day. He was handed the start in the game... he was notified well in advance that he was starting the game, he had loads of time to prepare... but he was part of am overall team that couldnt react when the pressure came upon them. That being said he was very good in the opening quarter of the game with his kicks causing problems and directly lead to 2 tries.....
as for chances...
hes had 303 mins in the 10 shirt.. over 10 caps
ross byrne has 299 mins over 11 test
billy burns has 90 min with 3 caps
actually incredibly similar experience
so where is the unfair comment on his chances??0 -
Remember when Tony Ward argued Billy Dardis should be in the squad?0
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Lost Ormond wrote: »Its not the case in any of the provinces. The screening process starts at u15 level in all the provinces. Very surprised its changed to 14s.
The development set up starts at 15s with training squads for players getting additional training/work on top of what they do in their school and/or club.
Very few actually think the provinces dont engage from early age. But other sides in other countries do work with players a lot more like the english academies.
Well he was under 14 at the trials but the entry level is under 15.0 -
Any rumoured teams in the papers? Thought we'd have seen something by now0
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irishbucsfan wrote: »Remember when Tony Ward argued Billy Dardis should be in the squad?
You mean Christian Cullenesque Billy Dardis?0 -
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sydthebeat wrote: »My opinion is not a slight on Carty, but a comment of the level i think hes at. On his day he can be as good as any of our 10s currently, but he does have issues with consistency.
He wasnt "thrown under the bus" against Japan. Thats simply hyperbolic nonsense. he was easily one of our better players that day. He was handed the start in the game... he was notified well in advance that he was starting the game, he had loads of time to prepare... but he was part of am overall team that couldnt react when the pressure came upon them. That being said he was very good in the opening quarter of the game with his kicks causing problems and directly lead to 2 tries.....
as for chances...
hes had 303 mins in the 10 shirt.. over 10 caps
ross byrne has 299 mins over 11 test
billy burns has 90 min with 3 caps
actually incredibly similar experience
so where is the unfair comment on his chances??
He was thrown under the bus after the game when everyone was looking for a scapegoat after an embarrassing loss and the shambolic management of our 10s over that international season by the coaching staff. I clearly wasn’t making the point about the build up to the game.
So like I said similar opportunities and same amount of competitive starts if we exclude the 150 minutes of pre-RWC friendlies where he won MOTM for the only start before Japan. 150 minutes of real competitive rugby including 6N and RWC.
How hasn’t he taken his chances with Ireland like you questioned? No problem with you saying you don’t think he’s test level, but where’s the proof based on his playing opportunities with Ireland compared to Burns and Byrne?0 -
He was thrown under the bus after the game when everyone was looking for a scapegoat after an embarrassing loss and the shambolic management of our 10s over that international season by the coaching staff. I clearly wasn’t making the point about the build up to the game.
So like I said similar opportunities and same amount of competitive starts if we exclude the 150 minutes of pre-RWC friendlies where he won MOTM for the only start before Japan. 150 minutes of real competitive rugby including 6N and RWC.
How hasn’t he taken his chances with Ireland like you questioned? No problem with you saying you don’t think he’s test level, but where’s the proof based on his playing opportunities with Ireland compared to Burns and Byrne?
303 minutes is not similar to 90
Over 10 games is not similar to 3
If you guys are only really comparing Carty and Byrne, that's fine, but say so.
Carty has over three times the playing time and caps of Burns. Who is better than either, in my option. If Burns continues as well as he has started, Carty vs Byrne is a third place competition (and for my money, Carty is better).0 -
I'd personally like to see more of Carty, certainly ahead of Ross Byrne.0
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Any rumoured teams in the papers? Thought we'd have seen something by now
Rumoured starting XV from a very solid source, bit of a curveball on the bench but otherwise as you'd expect!15. Harry Byrne
14. Harry Byrne
13. Harry Byrne
12. Harry Byrne
11. Harry Byrne
10. Harry Byrne
09. Harry Byrne
08. Harry Byrne
07. Harry Byrne
06. Harry Byrne
05. Harry Byrne
04. Harry Byrne
03. Harry Byrne
02. Harry Byrne
01. Harry Byrne
Replacements: H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, R. Byrne, H. Byrne0 -
Rumoured starting XV from a very solid source, bit of a curveball on the bench but otherwise as you'd expect!15. Harry Byrne
14. Harry Byrne
13. Harry Byrne
12. Harry Byrne
11. Harry Byrne
10. Harry Byrne
09. Harry Byrne
08. Harry Byrne
07. Harry Byrne
06. Harry Byrne
05. Harry Byrne
04. Harry Byrne
03. Harry Byrne
02. Harry Byrne
01. Harry Byrne
Replacements: H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, H. Byrne, R. Byrne, H. Byrne
Far too good for standard Six Nations matches.0 -
Any rumoured teams in the papers? Thought we'd have seen something by now
Connors supposedly starting at 7 according to BJackman
Keenan
Larmour
Ringrose
Henshaw
Earls
Same, Same
Healy
Herring
Porter
Beirne
Ryan
O’Mahony
Connors
CJ
Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Henderson, VdF, Park, Byrne, Farrell
No.23 will be interesting0 -
leakyboots wrote: »I'd personally like to see more of Carty, certainly ahead of Ross Byrne.
I'd personally like to see more of Carty, certainly ahead of Ross Byrne, Sexton, Burns and Harry Byrne.0 -
Connors supposedly starting at 7 according to BJackman
Keenan
Larmour
Ringrose
Henshaw
Earls
Same, Same
Healy
Herring
Porter
Beirne
Ryan
O’Mahony
Connors
CJ
Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Henderson, VdF, Park, Byrne, Farrell
No.23 will be interesting
That is a pretty 'meh' backrow if that is the case.0 -
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Thats only my guess
Jackman says Connors starts though
Interestingly he also said on the 42 podcast that Healy was offered a 1 year contract0
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