Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617347#Comment_119617347

I think Haley's issue there is 1) Hugo Keenan is justifiably one of the first names on the teamsheet and 2) his lack of versatility; it'd be atypical to bring a dedicated FB that isn't Ireland's 1st choice in the 33-man RWC squad.

Shane Daly, on the other hand, has played FB, Wing and Centre at a push. (Interestingly, he's listed as centre here).

With regards this tour specifically, I don't think his age profile suited what they were looking for either.

Dubinusa

I think Ulster and Connacht will be affected by this tour. Losing Doak and Balacoune is tough. Prendergast was Connacht's best player last year, imo.

Then there's Illo, who's done nothing as a pro! I wouldn't rate him as being worthy of a call up. Same with Smith!

I was surprised not to see EOS not involved nor Ben Healy? I suppose the selection is fine in a way, as there are some potential long term international players involved. Doak and Prendergast being the obvious ones and Kendellen would be a good shout to become regular international.

El_Duderino 09

I feel for Ben Healy. I think he was sold a dummy at his co tract negotiations. He was tapped up by Glasgow and he's Scottish qualified. So Ireland brought him to some 6N training camps and he signed with munster and he hadn't been in the Ireland squads since then.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him look for other options after this contract. He's in a strange position. He's good but hard to know how good he is. If he had a season asbthe first choice out half, we'd have a better idea of his performance level. But he won't get that with Carbery around amd he's not in either the Ireland first team squad or the emerging squad.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617267#Comment_119617267

I think some of the players are just squad fillers, they couldn't decimate the provinces for this so seems to be a mix of high potential players and some other players the provinces can afford to lose.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617540#Comment_119617540

Healy might be better off at home playing the URC. It really is hard to know who are the losers or winners in all this.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617540#Comment_119617540

I feel for Ben Healy. I think he was sold a dummy at his co tract negotiations. He was tapped up by Glasgow and he's Scottish qualified. So Ireland brought him to some 6N training camps and he signed with munster and he hadn't been in the Ireland squads since then.

Was he definitely called into training camps? I can't say I recall that. In any case, he's only on a 1 year contract as well so whatever happens, he'll likely have options.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617200#Comment_119617200

sorry? this sort of abuse is allowed now is it? it is about time that rugby is more representative of all the communities in Ireland, i am afraid. irish football is leading the charge here, rugby is miles behind still mostly propped up by homogenous private schools. good to see Munster leading the charge in this area where i imagine Edogbo will emerge as a serious operator. Illo is a fine product of Wesley (private i know) and Leinster, and looks a really good prospect. i don't see how any of that warrants personal abuse.

it is an interesting squad. yet in a regrettably irrelevant set of fixtures. i'd imagine some of the players aren't actually that thrilled to be included. Penny, Kendallan and RB surely would be better off playing URC. as phog said its hard to know who is a winner or loser here. a bit of a poisoned chalice. no chance for many of them to be involved at WC and falling behind at provinces. all of the backrow options could be seen in this category.

just grow a pair and blood some of these guys in real tests, like 99 per cent of other nations.

I think the idea is for these players to get familiar with the Irish systems and for Irish coaches to get a feel for them. You don't exposure to that playing for your province. Surely you get to know a player better when coaching them rather than simply watching them play on TV. Some people are dismissing the value of that altogether it seems. If/when they called into the wider RWC squad, they can slot in relatively quickly.

starkid

But again Andy Farrell, the main man isn't even there. so he's requiring second hand information on the players.

none of it makes sense. even the selections.

lets just call it for what it is. a total waste of time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617754#Comment_119617754

Ah you are back to spread the misery. Where were you when Ireland won in NZ?

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617761#Comment_119617761

admiring a great win, which is somewhat diluted given the Argentina result.

anyway i'm more looking forward to the provinces playing than this farce of a tour.

to be positive there is some serious talent on this Island. a few of those on that tour. Culhane is unreal seen him in the flesh alot for UCD and he's ridiculous given that he's not a huge man.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617634#Comment_119617634

Yeah he was called in as I recall. I remember thinking it was a good omen for him but since he signed he hasn't been involved again.

Thinking about it, it was when HB was injured and when HB returned, he was recalled as the extra out-half in camp.

El_Duderino 09

AF's decision not to lead the tour is strange.

But on the bright side, it will develop the coaching team who will have to step up and demonstrate more leadership and decsion making.

I know that argument won't butter any parsnips with those opposed to the tour. It would be great to whinge about the tour. You get to whinge now and then enjoy the development that the players will inevitably gain and bring back to their clubs.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617795#Comment_119617795

They haven't been selected out of position; just named on the announcement. I'm not sure I'd read too much into it tbh.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617402#Comment_119617402

I never mentioned keenan, clearly he has the first choice 15 jersey well sown up at the moment.

Daly has never had a great game in any of those positions, hes a very average player tbh, as is nash.

Age would make sense, also what would make sense is munster not wanting him released for this either.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617807#Comment_119617807

Ah ya, but if we're wondering why Haley hasn't gotten a look in with Ireland, then Keenan is a large part of that context. And part of that is because he's rarely injured (an attribute Haley shares with him).

I'd agree with regards Daly tho. I'd wager his best spell of form were the 3 games where he played FB, with the league returning in Aug 2020. That got him into the Autumn Ireland squad for the November games, where he only got 18 minutes.

He was very solid, if unspectacular, in those 3 games but hasn't really hit that form since, at least in part because of Haley's robustness. Haley's rarely injured, so Daly rarely gets a chance at 15, which I'd wager is his best position.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617100#Comment_119617100

i wasnt referring at all to u20s, ive no idea what youre talking about.... im leaving nothing out of my statement

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617754#Comment_119617754

Lets just call you for what you are; someone who hasn't the first clue about how Andy Farrell manages his staff, his information flow, his analysis and his wider pool of available players.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617905#Comment_119617905

i'm hardly unique in questioning this.

But ROC of the Indo reckons he will be there just not coaching hands on.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617890#Comment_119617890

So it's not including U20's? Did we really have a non-test mens game in Galway? I've no recollection of this, but fair enough will hold my hands up if that's the case.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617890#Comment_119617890

What games are you talking about then in Belfast, Galway, Limerick and Cork?

There was the game against Fiji in Thomond Park during Kidney's tenure, but I'm struggling to think of others. Was there a Baabaas game in there somewhere? - or maybe that was at Kingsholm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617923#Comment_119617923

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/21147198

Found it from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Wolfhounds#2010s

There hasn't been many Ireland A games in the 2010's compared to other decades.

Happyhouse22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616965#Comment_119616965

Hehe

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617988#Comment_119617988

Good find. So since 2010 there's been 2 non-test games in Belfast, 1 in Limerick, 1 in Galway and 1 in Cork. And none in over 7-and-a-half years.

When you consider the number of Test games played in Dublin since then (and with the Aviva agreement, is completely fair enough) I can understand why some may be disappointed this isn't going ahead outside of Dublin, it'd seem an ideal candidate.

(And with Munster having the Maori All Blacks, and now SA visit in that time, Ravenhill would've made sense to me).

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617972#Comment_119617972

27 November 2009: Ireland A 31–0 Argentina Jaguars, Tallaght Stadium, Tallaght, Att. 4,016[71]

31 January 2010: England Saxons 17–13 Ireland A, Recreation Ground, Bath[72]

5 February 2010: Ireland Wolfhounds 34–19 Scotland A, Ravenhill, Belfast, Att. 2,746[73][74]

28 January 2011: Scotland A 32–12 Ireland Wolfhounds, Netherdale[75]

4 February 2011: Ireland Wolfhounds 20–11 England Saxons, Ravenhill, Belfast, Att. 2,000[76]

28 January 2012: England Saxons 23–17 Ireland Wolfhounds, Sandy Park, Exeter[77]

16 November 2012: Ireland XV 53–0 Fiji, Thomond Park, Limerick, Att. 17,126[78]

25 January 2013: Ireland Wolfhounds 10–14 England Saxons, Galway Sportsground, Galway[79]

25 January 2014: England Saxons 8–14 Ireland Wolfhounds, Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester[80]

30 January 2015: Ireland Wolfhounds 9–18 England Saxons, Musgrave Park, Cork, Att. 8,200[81][82]

from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Wolfhounds

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617115#Comment_119617115

I suppose I shouldn't generalise too much. But there isn't a culture of excellence and an expectation that players will develop into frontline internationals in Munster at the moment. In a team sport environment that counts.

Ahern looks like a sure thing - if he can stay fit. Crowley has star quality. He has players ahead of him at Munster, but maybe that won't matter too much if Farrell likes what he sees. Wycherley and one of Kendellen and Hodnett could make it, but the competition is stiff in their positions.

I'm a little surprised Campbell didn't make this tour.

I'm not sure you can gauge from 10 out of 35 that Munster's development pathways have been fixed. I think their current representation is roughly in line with previous Emerging Ireland squads. They have 10 out of 35 in 2022 (28.6% of the overall squad)

In 2014 they had 9 out of 26 (34.6%)

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2014/0526/619811-20-uncapped-players-to-tour-with-emerging-ireland/

In 2015 they had 6 out of 27 (22.2%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Ireland#Current_squad

I can't find details of the squad for the 2013 Tbilisi Cup.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617540#Comment_119617540

I feel for Ben Healy. I think he was sold a dummy at his co tract negotiations. He was tapped up by Glasgow and he's Scottish qualified. So Ireland brought him to some 6N training camps and he signed with munster and he hadn't been in the Ireland squads since then.

Think the Scotland thing is overblown, but he was never in any Ireland squads afaik.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617675#Comment_119617675

We all know why you singled Illo out. And it had nothing to do with his background or where he went to school. So stop pretending.

He's a privately educated south Dublin schoolboy born and raised in Dublin, so if anything, he's the opposite to "representation of all the communities in Ireland"

I'm happy to see him there, because he's a good young rugby player. That should be it.

theVersatile

I don't think I buy the arguement that these lads are better off playing URC than in this. Take a guy like Scott Penney for example - he's been a killing it at the start of the URC for three or four years at this stage. Every time the same thing happens - he plays, he gets on a roll, then the likes of JVDF, Connors, and (back then) Leave return to push him to the back of the queue. He gets a few performances against the lower cannon fodder teams, scores a few tries, and people cry about why he isn't going to any higher places.

This is the kind of opportunity a guy like him needs. Not to be walking over Ospreys and Treviso for the fifth year running - but rather to get into an Irish camp and have a guy like Mike Catt reporting back to Andy Farrell saying "Wow, Scott really excelled in POMs wide role in open play/JVDFs quasi-scrumhalf role off lineouts/etc". Something that makes them go "let's have another look at this fella".

That's far more valuable than another few rounds of URC before fading into obscurity when the internationals return.

I agree with Balacoune travelling too. The guy has missed out on nearly every Irish squad since last Summer due to injury - this is a great time for him to get into camp and learn his roles off plays, positioning in structured attack (getting carrying infield of nine like Lowe and Hansen), etc. Now's as good a time as any to get him up to speed, and he'll be in the best place to make an impact come Autumn Internationals or the Kiwi A game. Ulster fans might not like it, but it's best for Robert and it's best for Ireland.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617173#Comment_119617173

Which of those players would start ahead of the players they have available? Apart from baloucoune. I can’t think of one. That’s what I mean by little disruption.

The proof of the pudding and all that will be in the results.