Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761922#Comment_119761922

true too. i suppose having a relatively versatile backline means whatever combination of bench/starters should cover most bases

id be more concerned about the lack of a standout back up at 15. lowry and o brien are fairly decent but i cant see either being in the rwc squad to be honest. id like to see carbery and conway getting some gametime there even if they arent playing there for munster. both are likely to be in the squad and both have been pretty good there in the past

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761921#Comment_119761921

Could we go easy on the personal stuff there, chief, and just stick to the rugby.

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761921#Comment_119761921

It's not gaslighting. Your posts are a super intense reaction to what is, at the end of the day, a forum where people discuss their (let's be honest - inconsequential) thoughts and ideas about a sport they enjoy. Nobody is ******** on Ringrose. It's because we have such a pool of talent at centre that people are talking about different ways of getting exciting players on the field. Relax - as I said, it's inconsequential.... it's just chat.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761969#Comment_119761969

You literally said I was over-reacting, so don't get personal with me if you don't want it to be dished back at you.

This conversation about dropping/moving Ringrose has been happening for years. Every time someone else pops up onto the scene, Ringrose has to make way.

Don't tell me I'm over-reacting when I'm constantly making this same point at every international window. How is it an over-reaction when this is not the first time this conversation has been had?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761991#Comment_119761991

When this conversation about dropping/moving Ringrose happens nearly every international window since 2018, it goes from being 'inconsequential' to being completely disrespectful. I stand by that.

Don't tell me this is anything else. It's been going on for far too long when there is nothing to show for it other than an odd dislike for the man.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761837#Comment_119761837

Jesus calm yourself. Its not outrageous to claim Henshaw is a better 13 than Ringrose. As for the rest of your post...yeah maybe take a break

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762086#Comment_119762086

Can you point me to a post over the last few pages where anyone has "completely sh*t on" Ringrose?

AbusesToilets

What's wrong with trying out a new combination for the sake of it? We know the quality of Henshaw and Ringrose, might be good to see how Hume, Frawley, or even someone like Osbourne do in an otherwise full strength team.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762377#Comment_119762377

There's your bad faith again.

When a conversation about dropping/moving a player to accommodate another flavour of the month consistently happens, it's outright disrespect. You can dress it up whatever way you want but you and I have had this conversation more than once and everytime you try to gaslight me on it. So with the greatest of respect, either debate properly or don't debate at all.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763133#Comment_119763133

There's your bad faith again.

You claimed certain players are "completely sh*t on". I'm merely asking you to point to the posts where that happened. (If you think that's "bad faith", I'm not sure you understand what "bad faith" means).

... it's outright disrespect. You can dress it up whatever way you want but you and I have had this conversation more than once and everytime you try to gaslight me on it.

I said something as mild as suggesting Ringrose as a wing option giving us greater flexibility around the 23 jersey, and admitted it was:

1. A left wing suggestion
2. Probably agreed previously with the idea being dismissed and
3. That I'm not sure I'd ever want him to start on the wing.

That's in the context of:

1. Farrell fairly regularly selecting centres at 23 and
2. Ringrose having a pretty brilliant 60 minutes very recently on the wing.

From there, you've come back with "completely sh*tting on players", "outright disrespect", "bad faith" and "gaslighting".

So with the greatest of respect, I think I'll stick to my conclusion of it being a massive overreaction.

leakyboots

Coombes is surely banging on the door for a place in the 23 now? We have very few players with his raw power. Reminds me of Ferris

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761504#Comment_119761504

FWIW I heard Andrew Dunne suggest this a few years ago, when Henshaw, Aki and Ringrose were all fit and in great form. Very much a "get your best players on the field, figure it out later" kind of vibe.

Worth also noting that under Farrell, wingers spend a lot of time infield, in a first or second receiver role, with duties to pass and distribute. So it's not exactly preposterous to consider Ringrose as a wing option IF all options at centre are fit and in form.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763211#Comment_119763211

I'll repeat this to you again since you seem to have trouble reading.

This nonsense about how Garry Ringrose should be dropped has been happening for years when there has been little to suggest that it should happen. First it was McCloskey, then it was Aki, move Henshaw to 13 and now move Ringrose to the wing to play James Hume. It's been a consistent pattern since 2018 when Munster fans clamoured for Farrell to play 13 and it stops during the international windows when Ringrose plays well, but holy sh*t the first sign of a rocky performance and the knives are out again. Or he plays well, things go quiet for a while and the conversation starts again as we approach the next international window.

That's a pattern, and it's a pattern of pure disrespect to a top quality international who has been out injured enough times for others to put up their hands, yet when he comes back into the fold he shows just how good he is.

When a group of fans consistently look for a player to be dropped for no reason whatsoever, then yes I would class that as completely sh*tting on that player. You disagree. That's whatever. Don't tell me I'm over-reacting when I have plenty of reason to believe this as we saw the same nonsense about Johnny Sexton for years. We saw this nonsense with Rob Kearney for years. A large portion of posters wanted the IRFU to open the floodgates of loads of players leaving the provinces just because they wanted Kearney dropped. That is what's happening now with Ringrose and just wait and see for the knives to come out if he misplaces a pass by half a millimetre in the November series. It's so predictable and it's true to form for a lot of so-called 'fans' here. They deserve nothing.

It's the same pattern over, and over, and over again. Not only that, but anytime it's pointed out there's always someone to say it's 'an over-reaction'. Funny how you have decided to take on this mantle now while pretending to play devil's advocate.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763247#Comment_119763247

I'll repeat this to you again since you seem to have trouble reading.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763230#Comment_119763230

I said as much in the Munster thread, but I'm not sure there's another player in Irish rugby I'd want getting the ball from 5m out. He's a brilliant offloader as well as his carrying, and a really good jackal threat, so I'd love to see him getting an opportunity in the AI's.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763133#Comment_119763133

Bundee Aki isn't the ''latest flavour of the month''. He's one of Ireland's best, most reliable performers over the last 5 years.

And whether you agree or not, a strong argument can be made that Aki/Henshaw is Ireland's best centre pairing. I find the idea that Henshaw/Ringrose is unequivocally Ireland's de facto centre pairing and that's not allowed to be questioned a bit odd, despite the fact that all of Ireland's big wins since 2017 have had Aki at 12. (England 2018, NZ 2018, England 2021, NZ 2021, NZ 2022 x2)

But you'll probably interpret that as me sh*tting on Ringrose.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761882#Comment_119761882

He's already given solid reasons for each if his suggestions, with examples. You may not agree with him but there's no need to be a prick about it.

Using your best players for impact and picking a team to get your best players on the pitch are both valid strategies; neither is an insult, 'shïtting on' a player not an act of lunacy.

Former Former Former

Ringrose's ability to cover wing is like Healy's ability to cover tighthead or Carbery at full-back; nice to know it's there in an emergency but should never factor into national team planning. Farrell is absolutely clear that his first-choice pairing is Henshaw-Ringrose so probably not worth the row tbh.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763510#Comment_119763510

It goes into planning in-as-much-as it gives Farrell slightly more leeway picking a centre at 23, where you can't really cover all possibilities so any extra flexibility is useful. (And likely goes hand-in-hand with Carbery at 22).

The gas thing is, I didn't even suggest that Ringrose should be dropped. I might just go straight to responding with meme's in the future.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763247#Comment_119763247

I'll repeat this to you again since you seem to have trouble reading.

Why would anyone bother continue to read a post that started with that as an opening line.

Clegg

I'm glad we've decided that Doris is no longer a fraud. Only took three years of excellence and motm awards against New Zealand to do so.

Must love hardship

The 2 games on the first weekend on Friday and saturday night..

Will a squad of around 45 be needed?

Not enough turn around time for someone to bench Friday and bench again Saturday.

Must need a min of 4 players for each front row position

6 for second row

8 for 2nd row.

4 scrum halves/ outhalves etc etc..

Or is it a case of a smaller squad initially and then rounding up a few players for the A match the week of the game..

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763900#Comment_119763900

Anyone calling him a fraud was obviously being ridiculous. But his performance in the 2nd Test was significantly better than anything we had seen from him in (at least) the previous 6 months. It's ok to acknowledge that.

Personally, I'd love to see 6. Doris 7. VDF and 8. Coombes at some point over the AI's.

leakyboots

Doris had a dip in form and was rightly being questioned. He's playing well again. I'd worry about his durability but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

There's very little between Ringrose, Henshaw and Aki. I don't think having a preference for Aki-Henshaw necessarily s**ts on Ringrose at all, it's just a preference. I'm happy with any combination to be honest, I think Henshaw is the best of them but someone else might prefer one of the other two.

Kearney was not anywhere near the player some on here made out he was in his latter years, he did some of the basics well, excellent positionally, good kicker, good under the high ball - couldn't tackle and offered little in attack. Keenan is a far, far superior player.

Farrell had earned the plaudits at the time, his form took a dive when DDA arrived and they just didn't connect well. Until the legal matters get sorted we won't see him any time soon.

I do think McCloskey has been unfairly overlooked a bit at international level. But when you've a trio like Aki/Ringrose/Henshaw in pole positions you have to really shoot the lights out when given your chance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764741#Comment_119764741

What concerns on durability for Doris? The only material injury problems he's had are the head injuries?

Seems a bit unfair to hold that against him on durability grounds?

Former Former Former

I think a lot of these issues are driven by the recency effect, aka the 'what have you done for me lately' mentality, if you weren't awesome in the last 7 days, I don't want to know.

Like, Doris was MOTM against New Zealand in November and again in July. In between, he had a good Six Nations and some standout performances for Leinster. Not sure when the dip was tbh.

POM is another one, doesn't seem to matter how many performances he churns out, you'll get lads saying mad things like "Rhys Ruddock deserves a go".

Any idea what time this squad is announced?

Edit: Twitter tells me it's 4pm.

stephen_n

There seems to be an awful lot of focusing on extremities, to create an argument here at the moment. It would be nice uk have a discussion about players, without the fanboy/girl posturing about players.

If Coombes comes in, who does he replace? Does he go in at 8 and if so, do we drop Doris or POM to accommodate him? Could do with additional bulk against SA but can he defend as well as the other options. Certainly gives us something the other backrows don’t.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764917#Comment_119764917

I think a lot of these issues are driven by the recency effect, aka the 'what have you done for me lately' mentality, if you weren't awesome in the last 7 days, I don't want to know.

While the last 7 days is obviously an exaggeration, there's nothing wrong with wanting players who are in form.

I think it stems from Irish fans being scarred from previous regimes sticking with underperforming players for far too long, leading to predictable results, and thus we're very quick to call for the dropping of a player who's had a dip in form, perhaps sometimes unreasonably so. But we've seen before where ignoring form players in favour of out of form players get's us.

Haven't heard any calls for POM to be "dropped" in a while I must say (and no, I didn't call for him to be dropped yesterday, before someone tries that). Because he's playing brilliantly.

The questions were asked of Doris when he was dropping about two balls a game. Thankfully he seems to have tidied that up.

Clegg

Squad for the AIs has been named. Seems like Lowe and JGP are still out through injury. At least Keenan is back.

Frawley, Nash, JOB, Loughman, McCarthy and Prendergast are the uncapped players included.

Backs (16)

Robert Baloucoune (Ulster/Enniskillen) 2 caps

Joey Carbery (Munster/Clontarf) 35 caps

Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) 5 caps

Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/Skerries) uncapped

Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 20 caps

Mack Hansen (Connacht) 6 caps

Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 60 caps

Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 23 caps

Michael Lowry (Ulster/Banbridge) 1 cap

Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 99 caps

Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 6 caps

Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster) uncapped

Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas) uncapped

Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD) 44 caps

Johnny Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 108 caps CAPTAIN

Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 35 caps

Forwards (21)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University) 8 caps

Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 25 caps

Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 33 caps

Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 30 caps

Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster) 2 caps

Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 20 caps

Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 60 caps

Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 7 caps

Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 118 caps

Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 28 caps

Jeremy Loughman (Munster/Garryowen) uncapped

Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin) uncapped

Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 87 caps

Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 3 caps

Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 46 caps

Cian Prendergast (Connacht) uncapped

James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 46 caps

Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne) 10 caps

Nick Timoney (Ulster/Banbridge) 2 caps

Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena) 8 caps

Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 43 caps