Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119766994#Comment_119766994

He did fine in NZ, but I don't know that this is an exceptional skill he has over other options. I'd also question his ability to have the necessary impact if we're chasing a game.

I'd have concerns over Casey's kicking game, it was quite poor relative to his peers. Nothing that can't improve of course, but picking him over other options who've demonstrated higher performances doesn't make sense to me.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119766949#Comment_119766949

Quality post, fair play

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768979#Comment_119768979

Yeah I wouldn't have him there personally. I'm just trying to make sense of it. In certain circumstances, he can be a valuable player to bring off the bench. But I agree that if we're chasing a game, he's not what you want. And if JGP goes down injured early on, it's a big problem. But they've shown no intention of moving Murray on, they even gave him a new central contract. So they clearly see a lot of value in him. And look, I think the Irish coaches have earned a bit of trust given the results they've delivered over the last 12 months. But the current coaching ticket will ultimately be judged on the next 12 months, not the last 12 months. And if Ireland have a successful world cup and Murray is a part of that, I've no issues. But if things go off the rails like they did 4 years ago, I think the persistence with Murray will be one of those selections that could justifiably be criticised after the event.

I actually think Casey's kicking game has come on a bit of late. And box-kicking isn't as important an attribute in an Ireland scrum half as it was in previous years. We don't do it anywhere near as much in the middle third of the pitch. And we have more effective exit options in Lowe or Stockdale. JGP's box kicking isn't world class either.

pickarooney

Frawley is essentially second choice at Leinster. Sexton will play about two more games in the URC and big games in Europe. Ross Byrne will be starting most games and there'll be plenty of chances for Frawley to appear off the bench and, if he makes a fist of it, to take the 10 jersey.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769016#Comment_119769016

That sounds like third choice. Its not just the amount of games, its also the calibre of game.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768909#Comment_119768909

The issue to me is that I'm not sure Frawley is the 3rd choice 10.

He is imo the utility back who will be the 3rd 10 in the squad so they are investing game time in him but he isn't 3rd choice 10.

If Sexton goes down (ala Wallace in the world cup warmups) badly injured Carberry starts and someone else is called into the squad who will wear the 22 shirt.

I don't know who that is.

Former Former Former

They've included Frawley and Crowley at the expense of Ross Byrne, Carty and Burns so we can assume the latter three are done. Unless they've big plans for H Byrne it would appear that this is it.

The coaches really seem to see something in Frawley, even if he's a 10 slash 12, it's a big vote of confidence in a guy who is in single figures of appearances.

sydthebeat

^

What a weird post

:D

salmocab

Jesus Christ he’s re registered again, more paranoid nonsense. We just need a mention of schools to complete this round.

aloooof

Wtf is up with this place at the moment??

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768979#Comment_119768979

Where would you rate kicking in terms of importance to Ireland’s game plan? It’s way down, tbh. Fwiw, I think his kicking has improved; he’ll never get the hangtime Murray gets but it’s not like JGP is an elite kicker either, as TRC mentioned.

And I don’t think the other options have demonstrated higher performances at the things most important to the Irish game plan; speed of service, tempo and accuracy of pass. (I think Casey has the best pass of all our 9 options tbh).

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768955#Comment_119768955

The one difference is that, with the new coaching team in at Munster, I’m not sure we can definitively say Crowley is 3rd choice.

And in a sense, Frawley is even 4th choice at Leinster behind the perennially injured Harry Byrne too. In a few weeks, it could become clear that Crowley is 2nd choice and Frawley 4th.

Having said that, I think Sexton’s minutes have been frontloaded this season due to the EI tour, so don’t expect to see him getting many more regular league starts this season, so think Frawley will see a decent amount of game time there.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769525#Comment_119769525

Also I'm not sure that Frawley is 4th choice at Leinster.

Harry Byrne was released to play for Lansdowne before getting Injured again.

Id say its a safe bet that at the point in time Frawley is 3rd and pushing for 2nd if he can stay injury free himself.

It's just a matter of time until Frawley is second choice. Leinster have indicated recently that they want to try him at 10 following his Ireland success. Injury has scuppered that and it's only 6 games into the season.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119767656#Comment_119767656

I agree he was, I wasnt saying his selection was unjustified!, its just when you have 2 quality players you must choose what benefits the team more and Ireland had a more balanced back row & lineout option with O'Mahony than with Conan.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119767644#Comment_119767644

The one game before the EI tour happened Wycherley started. Tbh I probably went out on a limb saying he's first choice because in truth we have a small number of games to go on, We'll probably know for sure by the end of 2022.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769952#Comment_119769952

That's not the point I'm making tho. I think, regardless of our opposition / horses for courses, there's a really strong chance POM would've been selected ahead of Conan as he was in significantly better form.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769961#Comment_119769961

Ya, I don't think we can read anything into that single game tbh, especially as the EI players were meeting up the week following that game.

There's also Loughman in the conversation too. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out as Kilcoyne hasn't exactly started the season brilliantly. I'd have a lot of time for Wycherly.

leakyboots

I think Wycherley should be backed as first choice (for Munster), seems solid in the scrum and his handling is excellent. Loughman is in great form. Both could get international game time if they show enough.

I feel like Killer's race is run, like Cian Healy's. I wouldn't have either of them near a first choice provincial/international squad to be honest.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769171#Comment_119769171

Who's he?

Dubinusa

Frawley is interesting. Leinster have not seen him as an oh, until recently. Is this at the behest of AF? Crowley may be a future international 10, but he's got a lot of work to do. I think he has the tools. I suppose Burns and RB are out of the window ight now. Carty just doesn't have it! Harry Byrne is really an afterthought right now. There's no form or match time to gauge his level.

It will be interesting to see if Frawley does get a run for Leinster. Will he be up to the level? What about Joey? One half decent match and it's like he's the second coming! It's precarious at out half.

I think Casey has the 9 shirt in his grasp for Munster. Murray isn't near as fast working around the park. I would guess that GR and his staff need Casey to implement the game plan.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770323#Comment_119770323

Man of many user names, has an obsession with schools calling people out and oddly enough Clegg

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770407#Comment_119770407

What about Joey? One half decent match and it's like he's the second coming!

Ah, I think that's overstating it, tbh. He's performance against the Bulls was encouraging (probably his best for Munster this calendar year) but he needs to start stringing a few performances together now. Hopefully he can, and that working with Mike Prendergast will benefit him too. If he can, that can only be a good thing for Ireland.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769525#Comment_119769525

There's as much evidence of Crowley being 3rd choice at Munster as there is Frawley being 3rd choice at Leinster. Only a few weeks ago Crowley was still behind Ben Healy. If he has leapfrogged him, it's a very recent thing that's only happened post (and dare I say, because of) the Emerging Ireland tour. Because before that, he was very much behind Carbery and Healy in Rowntree's mind. He was on the bench for the Cardiff game, and not in the 23 for the Dragons and Zebre games. So even if the EI tour didn't happen, it's very unlikely Crowley would have been starting any games for Munster in that time.

Frawley has actually started a game at 10 this season, which Crowley hasn't. And Ross Byrne was fit as well, so it wasn't injury enforced. He went off injured in that game and he didn't feature until he came off the bench v Connacht. Harry Byrne was named to play for Lansdowne last week, so I think we can definitively say Frawley is ahead of him.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770787#Comment_119770787

Maybe GR could well have looked at who was going on the EI tours and decided on getting his other OHs up to match fitness at the start of the new season.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769480#Comment_119769480

If his kicking has improved, that's great. I was going from what I'd seen of him last year. Box kicking isn't the be all it was under Joe, but it was noticable how limited his kicks were. There's a certain baseline required, that he was falling short of imo.

I suppose my view of him is coloured by 2 things. The fact he leap frogged guys starting (and playing well) for their provinces such as Blade and Cooney. I don't have an issue with Farrell doing that, but why not take Doak in that case? Someone who also has a lot of talent, perhaps more, and who isn't physically limited in the way Casey is with his size.

All that is probably compounded by Murray's selection. Taking two SHs from Munster when they play the furthest from the style of Ireland is odd at best.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770787#Comment_119770787

There's as much evidence of Crowley being 3rd choice at Munster as there is Frawley being 3rd choice at Leinster.

But Munster have an entirely new coaching ticket. That's the difference. I think it's more certain Frawley is 3rd choice than Crowley.

Because before that, he was very much behind Carbery and Healy in Rowntree's mind.

I'm not sure how you can know this with any certainty at all tbh, because...

He was on the bench for the Cardiff game, and not in the 23 for the Dragons and Zebre games.

For the Zebre and Dragons game, he was away with the EI squad. He wasn't available for those games. He's only been available for 2 games, the Cardiff and Bulls games; he was on the bench both times.

Frawley has actually started a game at 10 this season, which Crowley hasn't.

Ya, and that was the week the EI squad met up; Frawley was the only player out of 30 odd from the EI squad that played that weekend; no other player did, as far as I remember. (The Friday night kick-off probably helped, but it seems like Leinster got some lee-way with Frawley at 10 for that game that no other Province did with their EI players).

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770842#Comment_119770842

There'll have been an element of that to it too; accounting for players leaving for the EI tour at the start of the season, and integrating them back in now.

But ultimately TRC is pointing to 2 games where Crowley wasn't in the 23 as evidence that he's 3rd choice, but overlooking that he wasn't even available for those games.

ulsteru20s

I think Crowley is solidly number 2 but i think its fine to wait and see a few weeks to see.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770864#Comment_119770864

If his kicking has improved, that's great.....There's a certain baseline required, that he was falling short of imo.

His accuracy is much improved, imo. He's unlikely to ever get the distance or hang-time Murray gets. He had a lovely dink on penalty advantage the last day that nearly put Liam Coombes away.

Taking two SHs from Munster when they play the furthest from the style of Ireland is odd at best.

I'd disagree with this; the style Munster have been trying to implement is pretty close to how Ireland play in terms of injecting tempo and speed into the play. (I think that's a reason we've seen so many errors from Munster, tbh; they're playing at a faster tempo they haven't previously been used to).