Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882708#Comment_119882708

Did they have an established player like Carbery to contend with? 14 teams, as opposed to 4 here, makes it more likely that a young player will have a clearer path. I think Farrell's doing the right thing in promoting players he likes like Crowley or Joe McCarthy before they're established at their provinces.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882758#Comment_119882758

The difference is, nobody is calling for Joe McCarthy (who has played in a European Cup final) to start against Australia

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882129#Comment_119882129

And if they are doing this, how can they be thinking Sexton can play 4 weeks in a row, it is criminal

What not play Crowley and have Ross Byrne or Carty on the bench

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882726#Comment_119882726

We disagree; I personally think he was excellent against Ulster and very good against Castres. Plenty others did too.

And personally, if I was try to make a case for a player's inclusion, I'd try not to mention losses against the Ospreys.

Meh. Personally, I think it’s pretty easy to understand how an individual player can play very well even in defeat. (I didn’t think I’d have to explain that tbh…)

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882766#Comment_119882766

Yeah, it's not like Joey Carbery has started 6 of Ireland's last 15 games or anything (7 if you count the 60 minutes he got in the 1st test v NZ).

So since March 2021, Joey Carbery has essentially started 47% of Ireland's games at 10. And people still say we aren't trying to develop a backup.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882368#Comment_119882368

Ok I stand corrected, I'll give you Sheehan. So if Crowley starts on Saturday, he'll be one of the best out halfs in the world within 12 months then, yes?

Must love hardship

What exactly do we learn from starting Sexton at 10 this weekend??

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882764#Comment_119882764

Maybe there would be those calls if McCarthy had got a few opportunities due to others being unavailable the way Crowley has.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882846#Comment_119882846

We continue our momentum going into 2023. Crowley and others will just have to bide their time and prove when they get a chance that they can make the step up to this level, sacrificing a game just to try someone out is totally counter intuitive and going into a RWC year with that mindset wont end well let me tell you.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882832#Comment_119882832

Potentially, who would have said Sheehan would be one of the best hookers in the world this time last year? Obviously he was going to be class but among the best in the world?

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882708#Comment_119882708

He was start week in week out at 12, it would be like us chucking Frawley in at 10 in the 6N last season which would have been laughed at on this forum

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882140#Comment_119882140

Using this metric to establish where a player is at it doesnt take into account a players development. Some players are stars from the very beginning like the ones you mentioned but some might need a year or two find their feet, it doesnt make them any less of a prospect.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882883#Comment_119882883

Yeah because we were a really good team with the best 10 in the world who had ambitions of winning the tournament. Why the f*ck would we play Frawley at 10?

France in 2019 were gash and had been for the guts of a decade, and their best 10 was Camille Lopez (good player but hardly world class).

Ntamack actually started that tournament in the centre and only moved to 10 for the Italy game.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882897#Comment_119882897

I accept that. But it's been 3 years since Crowley was an u20 and he still isn't Munster's starting 10. That would suggest he hasn't yet found his feet.

My point was, if your making the case that a player should get the James Ryan/Brian O'Driscoll/Dan Sheehan fast track treatment, then they better make the kind of impact that they did. And if Crowley makes that sort of impact, brilliant. But personally, having watched him for Munster, I haven't seen it.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882905#Comment_119882905

If Sexton was injured would we have even considered Frawley though?

If we have a Camille Lopez playing for us would we have dropped him for someone not even playing FH for his club? Not a hope, its something only France would really do.

France didnt play Italy until the final game so that didnt happen, he started at 10 against Scotland.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882918#Comment_119882918

Because its a specialised position and its hard to find you're feet unless you get a consistent run of games especially at 10, he's likely to get that this season and will grow substantially im sure by the end of it.

Its hard to compare like for like when you consider how dire Munster have been this season.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882832#Comment_119882832

He doesn’t need to be one of the best outhalves in the world in 12 months. He needs to be the 2nd best in Ireland.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882950#Comment_119882950

Well he needs to show that at Munster then, by getting ahead of Carbery and Healy.

You don't throw a guy in against Australia because you want them to be good. You do it because they are good. And Crowley has yet to show that he's at that level.

I'm not having a go at Crowley. I'm having a go at the people who seem to be overhyping him based on very little evidence.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881927#Comment_119881927

Not what I was saying. I didn't say to hand out caps. Just the fringe lads who may be going to France.

The result means nothing. The results in 2018 meant nothing. We were #1 then and 2019 happened. So really does the final test this year mean a whole lot?

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882140#Comment_119882140

There's less hype about Osborne because he's way down the depth chart. Out half the depth is Sexton and whoever.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882983#Comment_119882983

Well he needs to show that at Munster then, by getting ahead of Carbery and Healy.

Farrell’s selection policy has clearly shown you don’t need to be 1st choice at your Province to be considered.

And the coaches will have seen far, far more of him than we ever will. If they think he’s good enough, I think they’ve earned enough credit to trust that judgement.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882992#Comment_119882992

The fringe players going to France need to earn their caps like McCloskey has for example. If and when Crowley comes on against Australia he needs to show he's hungry for more game time and maybe then a start will come down the line.

The results mean alot actually, in fact the loss against England in 2019 mentally scared Ireland to the point I dont think they recovered for a long time. The mistake you make here is acting as if 2018 and 2019 correlated with each other, 2018 we did everything well. What happened in 2019 was we focused too much on the RWC and not on our next game and our performances all that year suffered, playing another player to give fringe players a chance before the RWC would be falling straight into that same trap. What we need to do is put our head down and keep winning while blooding afew players here or there along the way, that's what the other contenders will be doing.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883106#Comment_119883106

I think that’s a different point to the one TRC is arguing against though. If Farrell is going to back him then great, but TRC is arguing against the idea that Farrell has to back him this weekend. If he does then I’d agree that Farrell has more than earned the benefit of the doubt. But that door swings both ways too. If Crowley doesn’t start it shouldn’t be a stick to beat Farrell with either (I know you wouldn’t, but others might).

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882793#Comment_119882793

You need to have a 3rd string tried, look at the last world cup against Japan

Crowley could be totally out of his depth and at least you know he's not an option for this world cup

or he could be the best player on the field and turn into the starting 10 for Munster on the back of it

What are you gaining by playing Sexton

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883210#Comment_119883210

You’re mixing up you and I knowing and the coaches knowing. The coaches should never need a game against tier 1 opposition to know if a player is good enough to be a back up player for Ireland.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883206#Comment_119883206

I’d agree entirely that with everything there tbh.

But I’d suggest saying he has to start is as silly a point as suggesting his individual performances should be ignored if the team lost.

And if there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that there will always be people with sticks, regardless of what happens, alas…

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882726#Comment_119882726

A result of injuries to others...like Frawley... What has Frawley shown to put him ahead of Crowley

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883210#Comment_119883210

Crowley could be totally out of his depth and at least you know he's not an option for this world cup

And if Crowley started, had a shocker and was then dropped, you'd have a load of people complaining that we don't give guys a fair go, how can you judge him on one game, unfair to blame him for the loss blah blah blah.

Farrell has earned enough credit at this point that people should at least consider the idea that he knows what he's doing. Especially when we see about 10% of what he does. For all we know, Crowley has been stinking the place out in training all week.

Akrasia

The whole point of having the EI tour and the Ireland A games in NZ and here in November is to build depth and reduce our reliance on the same 15 players starting every big game.

Sexton starts the big games if he's fit but the coaches should be managing his minutes if he's so crucial. Sexton doesn't need to play Australia and Ireland Shouldn't need him to beat a misfiring and inconsistent Wallaby' team.

ionadnapokot

Reading the Australian papers and Mark Nawaqanitawase is going to start at 14.

And likely that Tom Wright on the other wing with Andrew Kellaway dropping back to FB.

Len Ikitau has played centre all tour. Hunter Paisami or Lalakai Foketi at 12.

Couldnt pick any of them out of a lineup!

White and Foley are the likely halfback pair.