Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Brewster

Players that haven’t experienced these pressure moments can’t be lambasted when it goes wrong for them. It’s all part of their development into a top class player. The mental side of the game is huge. Burns made some bad errors today, but I fully back the coaching staff to put him in the 23 and I hope he gets a chance to prove his doubters wrong in the future.

ujjjjjjjjj

Brewster wrote: »

Billy Burns is much better than this. He is a fine player, can take ball flat, good passer, good tactical kicker. Brave as heck. He messed up today, nobody is disputing this, but he will come back and recover from this obvious setback.

Must say have watched a lot of him at Ulster and would have Madigan starting any day of the week......I genuinely see nothing more than a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf.

Say Ian Keatley at a push.

With talent around like Carty, the Byrne brothers, Healy and even Hawkshaw I just dunno what is going on with Farrell and what he sees in Burns.

El_Duderino 09

Louis Friend wrote: »

...
Burns should never play for Ireland again though.

Ah, you say that but, assuming Sexton isn’t available, then if they play Ross Byrne against France and get hammered and he’s shuffled back down the order again and Burns is back in pole position again.

I wonder if Harry Byrne would be an option. He’s probably too good for 6N though...

Burns had a shocker today. It’s not the end of his career. The world doesn’t work like the hyperbole on Boards.

Brewster

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Must say have watched a lot of him at Ulster and would have Madigan starting any day of the week......I genuinely see nothing more than a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf.

Say Ian Keatley at a push.

With talent around like Carty, the Byrne brothers, Healy and even Hawkshaw I just dunno what is going on with Farrell and what he sees in Burns.

Madigan is a very good player, I agree on this. But Burns is first choice for Ulster, no question. Burns has shipped a few injuries and this is my major concern about him, but any out half that is brave and takes the ball the way he does is simply a better player than you are crediting him for. He cross field kicking is usually on a sixpence. It didn’t work today, that’s the lack of experience at top level international rugby. For example, earls kicking out on full today was a much bigger error than Burns error given Earls experience. I don’t want to beat up on Keith either but we need to keep a sense of perspective. Burns has had sweet feck all opportunity in green. What do people expect? A world class finished article??

ujjjjjjjjj

Brewster wrote: »

Madigan is a very good player, I agree on this. But Burns is first choice for Ulster, no question. Burns has shipped a few injuries and this is my major concern about him, but any out half that is brave and takes the ball the way he does is simply a better player than you are crediting him for. He cross field kicking is usually on a sixpence. It didn’t work today, that’s the lack of experience at top level international rugby. For example, earls kicking out on full today was a much bigger error than Burns error given Earls experience. I don’t want to beat up on Keith either but we need to keep a sense of perspective. Burns has had sweet feck all opportunity in green. What do people expect? A world class finished article??

Of course don't expect the finished article. I can see potential in Carty, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy etc and they have a high ceiling. Just don't see it in Burns and can't fathom anytime he starts ahead of Madigan in white

I genuinely wouldn't even have him in discussion for the Ireland squad let alone a match day 23.

Sure we can agree to disagree and sure for Billy's sake I personally I wish him well and hope he proves me wrong but I would be genuinely surprised if he does.

Lost Ormond

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Must say have watched a lot of him at Ulster and would have Madigan starting any day of the week......I genuinely see nothing more than a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf.

Say Ian Keatley at a push.

With talent around like Carty, the Byrne brothers, Healy and even Hawkshaw I just dunno what is going on with Farrell and what he sees in Burns.

Talking about Hawkshaw is histerical nonsense. 5 Leinster appearances. Give over.
Steady on. Madigan has shown he isnt good enough. Burns may not be good enough long term but is better than Madigan and Healy, Byrnes for now.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, you say that but, assuming Sexton isn’t available, then if they play Ross Byrne against France and get hammered and he’s shuffled back down the order again and Burns is back in pole position again.

I wonder if Harry Byrne would be an option. He’s probably too good for 6N though...

Burns had a shocker today. It’s not the end of his career. The world doesn’t work like the hyperbole on Boards.

Harry shouldnt be picked until he is regularly picked in big games ahead of bis brother and playing more often

lawrencesummers

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Sexton is the ultimate competitive nutter, love him to bits for it and of course he ain't happy about going off. Could have spent the afternoon chatting to Burns and it wouldn't have made any difference......no idea what Farrell sees in him. Bizarre. We have some good young talented outhalves about in Carty, Healy and the Byrne Brothers and a steady hand in Madigan and then there is Billy Burns.

Look hate getting at one player but anyone who says he is anything more than a sub PRO 14 away to the Dragons on a Friday evening kinda outhalf I wonder about.......clear as day to me.

Yea I would have had Carthy ahead of burns today.


I also would have had madigan, Bill Johnston, both Byrnes, JJ, Healy, Crowley and a limping Carbery ahead of him.


I’ve never rated burns.
I’ve always felt he is just a kicking OH and not a very good one, his kick straight to touch on 75 minutes didn’t come as a surprise to me.

El_Duderino 09

Lost Ormond wrote: »

...

Harry shouldnt be picked until he is regularly picked in big games ahead of bis brother and playing more often

I know.

lawrencesummers

Brewster wrote: »

Billy Burns is much better than this. He is a fine player, can take ball flat, good passer, good tactical kicker. Brave as heck. He messed up today, nobody is disputing this, but he will come back and recover from this obvious setback.

Your only as good as your last game.

ujjjjjjjjj

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Talking about Hawkshaw is histerical nonsense. 5 Leinster appearances. Give over.
Steady on. Madigan has shown he isnt good enough. Burns may not be good enough long term but is better than Madigan and Healy, Byrnes for now.


Harry shouldnt be picked until he is regularly picked in big games ahead of bis brother and playing more often

Hawkshaw looks like serious potential. Genuinely I would rather give him a shot than Burns as every bit of rugby knowledge I have says Burns is just a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf and won't go beyond where he is now.

Brewster

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your only as good as your last game.

Silly thing to say. The coaches won’t look at it like this and rightly so. He has obviously trained really well over past couple of weeks. Sexton may still be ok for next week, and if he is, I’d keep Burns in number 23 jersey.

lawrencesummers

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Hawkshaw looks like serious potential. Genuinely I would rather give him a shot than Burns as every bit of rugby knowledge I have says Burns is just a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf and won't go beyond where he is now.

You can advocate for hawkshaw all you want once you explain how Carthy was good enough for a RWC 12 months ago but isn’t able to see the squad now.

Carthy is a fine player.

Burns is like a lad who has been promised a few Irish caps if he signs for ulster. Nothing, absolutely nothing in his ulster performances since he signed would lead you to believe that he can play 20/30 minutes of international rugby and be effective. He is an average PRO14 player.

lawrencesummers

Brewster wrote: »

Silly thing to say. The coaches won’t look at it like this and rightly so. He has obviously trained really well over past couple of weeks. Sexton may still be ok for next week, and if he is, I’d keep Burns in number 23 jersey.

So we don’t judge players on their performances now.

Good to know.



Out of interest, is there anything that Burns did properly during his time on the pitch??? (Not that the coaches would be looking at such thing)

Lost Ormond

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Hawkshaw looks like serious potential. Genuinely I would rather give him a shot than Burns as every bit of rugby knowledge I have says Burns is just a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf and won't go beyond where he is now.

Hawkshaw isnt playing and likely wont be playing a lot of games at pro level for a while. He may have serious potential but will be 3rd behind both Byrnes for a while yet. He is in no way in any contention and shouldnt for a while yet

ujjjjjjjjj

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You can advocate for hawkshaw all you want once you explain how Carthy was good enough for a RWC 12 months ago but isn’t able to see the squad now.

Carthy is a fine player.

Burns is like a lad who has been promised a few Irish caps if he signs for ulster. Nothing, absolutely nothing in his ulster performances since he signed would lead you to believe that he can play 20/30 minutes of international rugby and be effective. He is an average PRO14 player.

Sorry let me be clear of course Carty is way ahead of Hawkshaw just as both Byrnes, Healy and Madigan are as an Irish 10.

Totally agree with you that Burns is an average Pro 14 player and has no business being near international rugby in my opinion. Don't like bashing on a player and to be frank it isn't fair to have in him in this situation. Reflects really poorly on Farrell's judgement.

TRC10

Nobody is disputing Burns had a shocker today. He absolutely did. But anybody who has watched Ulster regularly over the last few years cam surely know that he's a good rugby player, and hes shown it at European level on multiple occasions. The argument that "if he was any good hed be playing for England" is complete nonsense because there are dozens of international quality players who dont get a look I'm for england. The European player of the year literally doesn't get in the team. Billy Burns is still our 2nd best 10 and I'd start him next week.

Bazzo

Is go for:

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Beirne
Henderson
Ruddock
Van Der flier
Stander

Casey
Byrne
Larmour
Henshaw
Ringrose
Conway
Keenan

Heffernan
Kilcoyne
Furlong
Dillane
Connors
Murray
Burns
Aki

Of the selected squad.

AdamD

If you think Madigan is better than Burns then you have not been watching the same Ulster matches as everyone else

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Nobody is disputing Burns had a shocker today. He absolutely did. But anybody who has watched Ulster regularly over the last few years cam surely know that he's a good rugby player, and hes shown it at European level on multiple occasions. The argument that "if he was any good hed be playing for England" is complete nonsense because there are dozens of international quality players who dont get a look I'm for england. The European player of the year literally doesn't get in the team. Billy Burns is still our 2nd best 10 and I'd start him next week.

Sadly in Ireland we have created a culture where only Sexton will do, it’s no wonder our 10s look like they lack confidence when they come on, we’ve done this to ourselves so can blame no one else for it.

theVersatile

Boards Einsteins: it's not fair, Ross Byrne was just scapegoated because he was at 10 when we lost twice to England and were under the pump, he's a much better player than that.

Also Boards Einstein (post 14 man loss to Wales): I never want to see Burns in an Irish Jersey again.

Yes it was a shocker but calling him a Pro14 journeyman out half is a joke. Also throwing Harry Byrne into the ten jersey for the French game must be one of the stupidest calls I've ever heard in my life (Ross fair enough only if Sexton unavailable) . Do you want all of our tens to be completely devoid of any confidence?

Buer

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Harry shouldnt be picked until he is regularly picked in big games ahead of bis brother and playing more often

The thing is, Ross Byrne at this point can be a better outhalf for Leinster as club/provincial rugby doesn't have the speed and intensity of test rugby. RB will continue to be picked as he's the better choice there. His decision making is excellent and he's afforded time to pick the best option and probe the defence with his boot.

But at test level, his lack of physical ability is exposed and level out the playing field. His pack aren't as dominant as Leinster would be. His time is reduced and he needs to be quick on his feet which is not his strength.

As such, I genuinely believe there's a chance that HB could be as good for Ireland as his brother right now with a higher ceiling. I'd have no issue whatsoever to see HB involved in a 23 for Ireland. Or Healy. We need to look at another option urgently after today. I was taken aback at how badly Burns fell apart.

ujjjjjjjjj

TRC10 wrote: »

Nobody is disputing Burns had a shocker today. He absolutely did. But anybody who has watched Ulster regularly over the last few years cam surely know that he's a good rugby player, and hes shown it at European level on multiple occasions. The argument that "if he was any good hed be playing for England" is complete nonsense because there are dozens of international quality players who dont get a look I'm for england. The European player of the year literally doesn't get in the team. Billy Burns is still our 2nd best 10 and I'd start him next week.

Forget the England stuff but really I have been totally underwhelmed by his performances for Ulster. Madiagn has looked more assured and more competent and I wouldnt hesitate to have Madigan starting ahead of Burns in white.

Anyway this will just go round and round.

Right now in Ireland I would have Sexton, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Ben Healy, Ian Madigan and Hawkshaw ahead of Burns for an Ireland squad place. Just my opinion.....

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

Nobody is disputing Burns had a shocker today. He absolutely did. But anybody who has watched Ulster regularly over the last few years cam surely know that he's a good rugby player, and hes shown it at European level on multiple occasions. The argument that "if he was any good hed be playing for England" is complete nonsense because there are dozens of international quality players who dont get a look I'm for england. The European player of the year literally doesn't get in the team. Billy Burns is still our 2nd best 10 and I'd start him next week.

I agree with you.
He is a good rugby player, and I’ve watched him in every game at Hcup level.

But good isn’t good enough for international level, and that’s all burns is. A good player, not a great player and he will never be a great player. You will never ever have the debate about who should start at 10, will it be sexton or burns??? He’s not good enough to take that jersey away from sexton and the Irish team is crying out for someone to do that.

He kicks to much, isn’t able for the physicality of the game and he isn’t particularly good at kicking.

TRC10

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Forget the England stuff but really I have been totally underwhelmed by his performances for Ulster. Madiagn has looked more assured and more competent and I wouldnt hesitate to have Madigan starting ahead of Burns in white.

Anyway this will just go round and round.

Right now in Ireland I would have Sexton, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Ben Healy, Ian Madigan and Hawkshaw ahead of Burns for an Ireland squad place. Just my opinion.....

Please tell us what you have seen from Madigan, Healy, H.Byrne and Hawkshaw that Billy Burns hasnt shown

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Sadly in Ireland we have created a culture where only Sexton will do, it’s no wonder our 10s look like they lack confidence when they come on, we’ve done this to ourselves so can blame no one else for it.

Is that you JJ?

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

Please tell us what you have seen from Madigan, Healy, H.Byrne and Hawkshaw that Billy Burns hasnt shown

Potential.

ujjjjjjjjj

AdamD wrote: »

If you think Madigan is better than Burns then you have not been watching the same Ulster matches as everyone else

Interested as to see how different our perspectives can be. For me no debate for Ulster. HCUP final tmrw I start Madigan tomorrow, the day after, the day after and twice the following day.......

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Potential.

You can do better than that, be more specific. Skills, characteristics, examples etc. Hard to take an argument seriously when the person making it canr offer any evidence to support it.

TomsOnTheRoof

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Flawless game from Keenan.15 done and dusted.

Back row is simple enough. Stander a one trick pony so clear that out, POM is fading fast and a liability.
.

Rhys Doris and VDF for me with support from Conan, Connors, Dan. Don't think you need to go outside these six. Jordi a good standby too.

Clear out CJ? Well there goes any credibility. Stander had 6 passes and an offload today as well as being joint top tackler. He also made the most metres out of the pack, despite not being our top carrier (he was only second here) and the third most metres overall. Finally, he was 4th in terms of defenders beaten, having beaten one less than Ringrose or Keenan.

To suggest that Stander is an issue for this team is not only ridiculous but illustrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the game.

ujjjjjjjjj

TRC10 wrote: »

Please tell us what you have seen from Madigan, Healy, H.Byrne and Hawkshaw that Billy Burns hasnt shown

Madigan serious experience and reliability and I trust him. The others all have potential to be good / great international outhalves.

Think Burns is at his ceiling now and that is Friday night v Zebre or the Dragons.