Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059090#Comment_120059090

They put in a decent shift against the All Blacks but got easily beaten when it mattered. Australia walked all over them in the semi final. That Argentina team were nothing special. The excuses made regarding the injuries for Schmidt were ridiculous, we were pathetic against Argentina.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059309#Comment_120059309

Beating Australia shows just how world class our pack are. Gibson Park was relatively poor trying to fill a role he has some experience of but with an outhalf he had no experience of and who had little experience themselves. Crowley was fine in the context of where he is as a developing player, but poor in terms of what a tier 1 team should anticipate and expect from a starting outhalf. Our backline had no continuity, possession continually broke down on or behind the gainline and at times it looked like Crowley was being intentionally bypassed by those around him.

Am yet to see anything to suggest he's an international class outhalf but he has loads of time on his side. That lack of international quality covers every prospect bar Carbery as things stand. It's not just about finding an outhalf - they need to be good enough to start or finish for one of the best teams in the world. We've been unlucky but it's also a development hole that should have been managed better.

Often wonder what would have happened had Ringrose been developed as an outhalf.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059427#Comment_120059427

Well it was his first start in test rugby which he didn't even know about until about an hour before kick off, if people expected him to just seamlessly slot in for Sexton then they set the bar unrealistically high. Out team that day had lost their heads, I mean on 2 occasions going down the narrow side for a 1 V 1 when Ireland had a clear 2 man overlap on the other side due to Australia being down to 13 men shows they clearly weren't switched on.

Well you wouldnt see anything to suggest he's a test level 10 yet anyway as there's no way a 10 is going to magically slot in and look like that after 1 game. What he needs is a few runs off the bench in the 6N and maybe a start against Italy and build his minutes that way, if he starts then showing he's capable of that he might get a start possibly in the RWC warm up matches.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059391#Comment_120059391

If you look at the injury profile of world cup winning teams, they generally tend to have excellent continuity throughout a tournament.

Teams that lose 2 - 3 key players suffer early exits.

We lost 5.

There is no asterix beside the results saying "Ireland only lost because O'Connell, Sexton, O'Brien, O'Mahony, Payne weren't available" but to suggest that those players wouldn't have made a difference is to imply that talent and experience have no bearing on results.

Do you think that talent and experience have no bearing in competitive sports? If so - please explain why with examples.

I'm only asking for examples because obviously the rest of us are being ridiculous - and you seemingly know so much better.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059458#Comment_120059458

I didn't have an issue with us going down the blindside - I like that Gibson Park is unconventional, it regularly catches teams out. We came exceptionally close let's not forget but fine - it didn't work out that time. He's produced plenty of scores for Leinster / Ireland by playing the unexpected option and I hope he keeps doing that. Being entirely conventional is what ultimately cost Joe Schmidt an early World Cup exit.

I've watched Crowley's Munster appearances. He looks hugely talented as a footballer, passer and runner but I haven't seen him control territory, pacing or space in a game at provincial or international level yet.

Nothing would please me more than for him to demonstrate all of those traits in the coming months - but until that happens I'd be wary of him taking the reigns in a world cup. I very, very much want to be proven wrong. I'd love to have egg on my face on this one - but it has to happen first.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057421#Comment_120057421

But these are unrealistic hopes. Sexton is unlikely to play much role between now and the end of the 6 nations assuming he has a fracture from that collision at the weekend

But even if he was fit, his record of staying fit for consecutive games is very poor. It's very unlikely that he would be able to get through even the pool stages of the RWC without getting hurt, never mind the intensity of a QF vs France or NZ.

Ireland need to have backup at 10 who are fully up to speed and match ready. Undercooked 10s in the RWC are the difference between winning a game, and getting hammered

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057503#Comment_120057503

RWC is older than the 6 nations which only formed in Y2k when Italy Joined the 5 nations (which only formed in 1910 when France joined the 'Home Nations')

For me, the RWC has been a feature of my entire life. I wouldn't have been old enough to remember any tournament that took place prior to 1987. It Pre-dates professionalism in Rugby union.

I don't think you can say the RWC is not an integral part of the sport and winning it represents the absolute peak of achievement in the sport.

I'd take winning the RWC over 5 triple crowns, a 6 nations grandslam, and winning 3 Lions tours in a row

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059502#Comment_120059502

Ireland need to have backup at 10 who are fully up to speed and match ready

We have one.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059309#Comment_120059309

Wasn't great, but good enough to be awarded player of the match and also made RTE's team of the week at 10 (from all of the URC games, not just the Irish derbies)

His kicking from hand wasn't brilliant in the first half, but he played very well other than that

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059466#Comment_120059466

Ireland were not a good enough team to win that World Cup, I never said that. We were a good enough team to put up a fight against Argentina with 5 injuries in the squad. The bookies agreed and had the odds close to a pick em with Argentina as slight favourites. We lost by 23 points and were never in the game. We performed well below par. Schmidt got a free pass from the Irish media as if the injuries were the only reason Ireland lost.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059427#Comment_120059427

Gibson Park deliberately didn't pass to Crowley in that game. (whether it was an instruction to 'protect' Crowley, or he took on that role himself) When Casey came on and actually passed to the 10, Crowley looked much better.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059588#Comment_120059588

I’ve no idea how Crowley got POTM in that game when there were numerous forwards more deserving, but there was little from Crowley to suggest he’s ready to step up to test level. Munster couldn’t get out of their half for the first 30 mins and he played no small part in that. Even in the second, Ulster were shockingly poor and Munster only managed to sneak it at the death. Again, Crowley played no small part in Munster struggling to get on top.

The guy has a lot of potential and I’m not in any way writing him off, but he also has a lot to learn. Which is to be expected given his age and experience. And that’s the point I’m making. He’s at the start of his career and his development. He isn’t ready for Test rugby yet. Nor should he be expected to be. He isn’t leapfrogging Carbery yet as some suggest he should.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059596#Comment_120059596

It was a 3 point game at 63 minutes lol.

Argentina built one score early on and got a very fortunate one. We fought back into the game, ran out of steam. Our defensive system was perhaps over reliant on a few key names but it's a result that with context is reasonably predictable, certainly not 'ridiculous'. The 2011 loss was far more egregious from my perspective, we had form, a full deck and then decided to change halves for absolutely no obvious reason.

Either way - we were very much in the Argentina game going into the final quarter.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059391#Comment_120059391

Us being "pathetic" against Argentina does not make them a "very average team"

They were anything but average in that competition.

phog

A few posts up there's an argument on how Ireland without 5 key players were hockeyed by Argentina then we have a post semi-critical of Crowley in a team without it's internationals and a medical joker in the 2nd row and a 3rd choice scrumhalf. A bit of balance is needed in reviewing performances in both games.

I'm not arguing now nor have I previously that Crowley should be ahead of anyone for the Ireland team but as I've already posted in this thread Farrell has him in his sights.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059706#Comment_120059706

I'd have Ross Byrne not just a little but a LOT ahead of Crowley at the moment.

Farrell however has the benefit of knowing what he is talking about and knowing what he is looking for so am keen to see Crowley deliver.

My only point is - am not sure what we're meant to be looking at with Crowley yet, his sensational break against Ulster aside.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059741#Comment_120059741

He has played for Ireland before his game v Ulster.

Farrell has obviously seen something you're missing

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059741#Comment_120059741

Here’s the thing tho; I’m not sure Ross Byrne is capable of making a break like that.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059706#Comment_120059706

And people forget we had more or less our best possible team v NZL in 2019 and we lost in almost identical circumstances to 2015. Makes me think we were reading far too much into the injuries in 2015.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/1610275195570327558?t=6vzdKcZcFePE1J7ROndSjA&s=19

.....

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059869#Comment_120059869

We weren't. NZL and Arg are different teams, and we came into both competitions in very different circumstances.

You could make a good case that we should not have relied on the defensive system that we did, but we relied very heavily on defending narrowly and shutting teams down before the ball got wide. that plan fell apart when we lost the 5 most important players in that system. There is no way that Arg get out wide so quickly to expose DK covering so much space if Sexton and Payne are in the centre of the field and SOB is at 7.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059869#Comment_120059869

And the hits just keep on coming with this latest classic: False Equivalence.

Is it really so hard to have a rational, reasonable and objective discussion in here these days?

2015 and 2019 are wildly different scenarios. In 2015 we had won a 6Ns and were playing well until a load of injuries fecked us against a decent Argie side. In 2019 we were crap all year and were crap in the QF against a class NZ side. The two aren’t even remotely the same. But people need to have their hot takes I suppose. 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059838#Comment_120059838

Yes and as mentioned - in my opinion our pack won that game, our back line were indecisive and disorganised.

A win against Australia in your first test at 10 is a great achievement, but the performance in terms of what you'd expect from an international 10 was sub par.

That's not a slight by the way, nor is it intended as such - you don't go more off the deep end in sport than Crowley did against Aus.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059866#Comment_120059866

He can't, nor ever will. But line breaks at 10 aren't what you look to your outhalf for either.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059702#Comment_120059702

Argentina scored 20 unanswered points to start the game and were back up by 13 points at the 70 minute mark. We were within one score of Argentina for less than 30 minutes of the entire game, including the 10 minutes to start the game. We were done at the 13 minute point.

We had a far bigger result in 2011 beating a Tri Nations Champions Australia team who made the semis that year than anything Schmidt achieved in a WC. His best result was etching out a win while playing to the strengths of a lumbering limited physical French team (who had finished 4th in the 6 nations that year, got obliterated in the quarters and finished 5th in the 2016 6 nations) and subsequently leaving the game with 3 key injuries and a suspension.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059866#Comment_120059866

Crowley made that break while playing at 12..... Healy was at 10

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060034#Comment_120060034

In a game where the scrumhalf doesn't really pass the ball to the outhalf then it's hard for the outhalf to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Iirc, JGP was below par that day too so that needs to be taken into consideration when analysing Crowley's performance and that of the back line.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059866#Comment_120059866

I'd be worried that this break will become an albatross around Crowley's neck. It wasn't anything to do with his ability as an outhalf and in fact he played pretty poorly at 10 against Ulster, but now if he isn't a test-level 10 very soon, people will be wondering when he's going to "replicate his early form". Also worth noting that at test level, I doubt the opposition forwards would be as disinterested in tackling him as the Ulster lads were.

I remember JJ Hanrahan scored a lovely try in the corner in the last minute to beat a French team (Perpignan?) - and everyone thought, this is the guy, the successor to ROG - but again, a lovely try in the corner had nothing to do with being a good OH, which JJH patently was not. Yet for ages, it kept coming up, remember that try, remember that try...

Crowley looks to be a very solid player and Farrell seems to see something in him, but perspective is needed.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060042#Comment_120060042

Not singularly, but an ability to threaten the line is large part of what our attacking play requires.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060059#Comment_120060059

Ok, but I don’t see the point.

Equally, put Ross Byrne at 12 and he’s still not capable of making that break.