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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #1892
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    TRC10 wrote: »
    You can do better than that, be more specific. Skills, characteristics, examples etc. Hard to take an argument seriously when the person making it canr offer any evidence to support it.

    Burns has never imposed himself on a HCUP game against decent opposition.
    He doesn’t attack the line
    He doesn’t identify space well enough.
    His first instinct is to kick.
    He is predictable.
    When he kicks he doesn’t kick well, that’s not just today but it’s been an aspect of his game for a while.
    He hasn’t got the physicality for top level rugby.
    His place kicking has never been exceptional, If it was then Cooney wouldn’t be kicking.


    Edit - Heineken


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    #1893
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Madigan serious experience and reliability and I trust him. The others all have potential to be good / great international outhalves.

    Think Burns is at his ceiling now and that is Friday night v Zebre or the Dragons.

    To quote Thanos from Avengers. "If you consider failure experience". Ian Madigan has never been first choice out half for any team hes played for. Billy Burns was first choice for England u20, Gloucesters first choice 10 for years and Ulster's for 3 years now. But you want Madigan who has never even been a good enough 10 for a club team let alone an international team. That's fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion.


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    #1894
    cantwbr1
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭cantwbr1


    Ross Byrne has been written off as he can only operate behind a dominant Leinster pack.
    When Billy Burns came on the pack was achieving parity (at least) so it could be assumed that RB may have done better

    Then again I know feck all about the fine details of rugby


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    #1895
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    TRC10 wrote: »
    To quote Thanos from Avengers. "If you consider failure experience". Ian Madigan has never been first choice out half for any team hes played for. Billy Burns was first choice for England u20, Gloucesters first choice 10 for years and Ulster's for 3 years now. But you want Madigan who has never even been a good enough 10 for a club team let alone an international team. That's fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion.

    Have any of those teams won anything?


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    #1896
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I don't want Burns to be the scapegoat because there were a lot more errors made on the field but they can't start him next week, assuming Sexton is out. You can't reward Burns' performance today.

    So Ross Byrne would start. What happens if he plays poorly?

    We're getting close to the point where you have to consider fast-tracking a Healy or Harry Byrne to avoid being in a potentially dire situation once Sexton is done.


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    #1897
    cantwbr1
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭cantwbr1


    [quote="
    His mistake for Bath against Toulouse sums him up pretty much.[/quote]

    Was that not his brother Freddie


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    #1898
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    cantwbr1 wrote: »
    Ross Byrne has been written off as he can only operate behind a dominant Leinster pack.
    When Billy Burns came on the pack was achieving parity (at least) so it could be assumed that RB may have done better

    Then again I know feck all about the fine details of rugby

    I don’t see what RB has done to warrant omission from this squad.
    The same for goes for Carthy.

    The worst thing we could possibly do is jump from 2nd choice ton 2nd choice for the next while.


    Just pick a sub 10 and give him a run of games FFS. You will never pick a winner if you back every horse.


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    #1899
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    cantwbr1 wrote: »
    Was that not his brother Freddie


    Maybe!!


    Yearra same incubation chamber.


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    #1900
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Burns has never imposed himself on a HCUP game against decent opposition.
    He doesn’t attack the line
    He doesn’t identify space well enough.
    His first instinct is to kick.
    He is predictable.
    When he kicks he doesn’t kick well, that’s not just today but it’s been an aspect of his game for a while.
    He hasn’t got the physicality for top level rugby.
    His place kicking has never been exceptional, If it was then Cooney wouldn’t be kicking.

    It's like you've just picked out the 5 most generic criticisms of an our half. I fundamentally disagree with every single one of those but I'm going to give this a shot.

    Doesn't attack the line: Go and watch his try against Georgia, his try against Gloucester, watch him vs munster this season.

    Doesn't identify space well: stockdale try v racing 2018. McIlroy try v munster, stockdale try v england

    First instinct is to kick: that's just objectively false because If that were the case hed kick more than he passes or runs, which he doesn't

    He is predictable: not sure how you can gauge that. Maybe you think hes predictable. He isnt.

    Not physical enough: maybe

    Place kicking: doesn't kick for Ulster because cooney is excellent. His percentage for ireland are pretty goof


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    #1901
    Pudsy33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,768 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I don't want Burns to be the scapegoat because there were a lot more errors made on the field but they can't start him next week, assuming Sexton is out. You can't reward Burns' performance today.

    So Ross Byrne would start. What happens if he plays poorly?

    We're getting close to the point where you have to consider fast-tracking a Healy or Harry Byrne to avoid being in a potentially dire situation once Sexton is done.

    This is the crux of it for me. I think Ross Byrne has had his chances and hasn't taken them. Burns was the obvious backup but he really let his nerves get the better of him today.

    Parachuting Healy or HB in could do them way more harm than good but we're getting to the point we're that call might have to be made.


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    #1902
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Have any of those teams won anything?

    No. What's you're point

    His England team won the world championship actually


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    #1903
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,874 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Should Connors be considered for 6 rather than 7? Start him at 6, let him tackle his heart out and then bring on someone for impact. He also has nice hands and given his height he should also be a line out option. He is not the kind of guy to have on the bench as he doesn't bring dynamism, he should start or not be in the squad.


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    #1904
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    Clear out CJ? Well there goes any credibility. Stander had 6 passes and an offload today as well as being joint top tackler. He also made the most metres out of the pack, despite not being our top carrier (he was only second here) and the third most metres overall. Finally, he was 4th in terms of defenders beaten, having beaten one less than Ringrose or Keenan.

    To suggest that Stander is an issue for this team is not only ridiculous but illustrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the game.

    Stander spends his life running into contact on purpose. There are half a dozen Leinster backrows who actually know how to avoid contact. I wouldnt have Stander in the first 6 backrows for Ireland atm.

    His stats over the years as you trawl through them are endless numbers of carries for not many meters.

    Look the guy has a heart of lion, tough as nails and tries his socks off. Love his character and admire his resilience but if Ireland are going to progress we need an entire backrow that is dynamic and looks for space always. If we based selection on heart and effort he is excellent, skills wise and playing style wise not what we need.

    Ireland are never going to bash and beat teams at the top end so we have to migrate our entire team to tempo, speed and space. Even players like Furlong, Kilcoyne, Porter and Ryan, I.e the big lumps show more dynamic carrying looking for space and movement.

    One moment today summed Stander up. Somepoint later in the second half he was carrying towards Faletau and two.meters out you could clearly see all he wanted to do was prove a point and run over him which of course he didn't do but if that had been VDF as a simple example he wouldn't have tried to work around Faletau not line him up.....

    We must move our game on and Stander is just not where we need to be heading as a team.


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    #1905
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Burns has never imposed himself on a HCUP game against decent opposition.
    He doesn’t attack the line
    He doesn’t identify space well enough.
    His first instinct is to kick.
    He is predictable.
    When he kicks he doesn’t kick well, that’s not just today but it’s been an aspect of his game for a while.
    He hasn’t got the physicality for top level rugby.
    His place kicking has never been exceptional, If it was then Cooney wouldn’t be kicking.


    Edit - Heineken

    Entirely agree with all of this.


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    #1906
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Entirely agree with all of this.

    Cool. Any attempt to back it up with examples?


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    #1907
    TomsOnTheRoof
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Stander spends his life running into contact on purpose. There are half a dozen Leinster backrows who actually know how to avoid contact. I wouldnt have Stander in the first 6 backrows for Ireland atm.

    His stats over the years as you trawl through them are endless numbers of carries for not many meters.

    Look the guy has a heart of lion, tough as nails and tries his socks off. Love his character and admire his resilience but if Ireland are going to progress we need an entire backrow that is dynamic and looks for space always. If we based selection on heart and effort he is excellent, skills wise and playing style wise not what we need.

    Ireland are never going to bash and beat teams at the top end so we have to migrate our entire team to tempo, speed and space. Even players like Furlong, Kilcoyne, Porter and Ryan, I.e the big lumps show more dynamic carrying looking for space and movement.

    One moment today summed Stander up. Somepoint later in the second half he was carrying towards Faletau and two.meters out you could clearly see all he wanted to do was prove a point and run over him which of course he didn't do but if that had been VDF as a simple example he wouldn't have tried to work around Faletau not line him up.....

    We must move our game on and Stander is just not where we need to be heading as a team.

    Can't agree with any of that. Seems CJ has taken on the mantle of being that player who is consistently excellent but will never get the plaudits.


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    #1908
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    TRC10 wrote: »
    Cool. Any attempt to back it up with examples?

    Endless watching of Ulster Rugby matches slowly tearing my hair out wondering what anyone sees in Billy Burns......


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    #1909
    cantwbr1
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭cantwbr1


    Pudsy33 wrote: »
    This is the crux of it for me. I think Ross Byrne has had his chances and hasn't taken them. Burns was the obvious backup but he really let his nerves get the better of him today.

    If my memory is correct Ross Byrnes two starts were against England where we got minced in the pack. Those games are driving the narrative here around him and his ability.

    I am happy to recognise that there is a lot more than those games feeding into it but I sometimes think that he is being held to a different standard to others.

    Again I also know that I know feck all about top end rugby


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    #1910
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    Can't agree with any of that. Seems CJ has taken on the mantle of being that player who is consistently excellent but will never get the plaudits.

    Totally respect your view on him and I can clearly see why he is popular, guy wears his heart on his sleeve and tries his socks off. Just think Ireland must move to the highest tempo game possible and Stander just doesn't fit into that for me.


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    #1911
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    TRC10 wrote: »
    It's like you've just picked out the 5 most generic criticisms of an our half. I fundamentally disagree with every single one of those but I'm going to give this a shot.

    Doesn't attack the line: Go and watch his try against Georgia, his try against Gloucester, watch him vs munster this season.

    Doesn't identify space well: stockdale try v racing 2018. McIlroy try v munster, stockdale try v england

    First instinct is to kick: that's just objectively false because If that were the case hed kick more than he passes or runs, which he doesn't

    He is predictable: not sure how you can gauge that. Maybe you think hes predictable. He isnt.

    Not physical enough: maybe

    Place kicking: doesn't kick for Ulster because cooney is excellent. His percentage for ireland are pretty goof



    Easy look good against Georgia, glaws and a second string Munster team.


    He’s not good enough, if you don’t believe that then keep watching because he will undoubtedly provide more evidence.

    Do you honestly think he is good enough to push sexton for selection of the Irish shirt?


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    #1912
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Totally respect your view on him and I can clearly see why he is popular, guy wears his heart on his sleeve and tries his socks off. Just think Ireland must move to the highest tempo game possible and Stander just doesn't fit into that for me.



    We have far bigger problems than the consistent, and probably one dimensional yet error free performances that CJ puts in.

    If you think we need to fix the replacement of CJ as our main priority first then your skipping about 5 bigger problems.


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    #1913
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Easy look good against Georgia, glaws and a second string Munster team.


    He’s not good enough, if you don’t believe that then keep watching because he will undoubtedly provide more evidence.

    Do you honestly think he is good enough to push sexton for selection of the Irish shirt?

    If it's so easy for "pro14 standard" Burns to look good against Georgia then Ross Byrne must have played an absolute blinder then.

    Oh wait.


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    #1914
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    TRC10 wrote: »
    Cool. Any attempt to back it up with examples?



    https://youtu.be/oTKSEiFunxI


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    #1915
    phily2002
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Sexton hasn’t learned from the autumn.

    His attitude at obviously needing to go off showed his true colors again. He was out cold for a spell, couldn’t stand for a while and then needed help coming off, yet instead of encouraging his team he felt bad for himself.

    Imagine he turned around to burns and offered some encouragement, told him to see it out, that he was good enough to win the game etc etc.


    Naw. He cribbed at something that was as obvious a call as POM’s


    This is pretty shocking. He was sparked out and possibly didn't know what was going on. He admitted himself he was out of order the last time. This time he was in cuckoo land, pretty embarrassing account of what happened from you.


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    #1916
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/oTKSEiFunxI

    I don't think you understand mate. I agree Billy Burns was **** today.


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    #1917
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    cantwbr1 wrote: »
    If my memory is correct Ross Byrnes two starts were against England where we got minced in the pack. Those games are driving the narrative here around him and his ability.

    I am happy to recognise that there is a lot more than those games feeding into it but I sometimes think that he is being held to a different standard to others.

    Again I also know that I know feck all about top end rugby

    And I’m pretty sure in the England game Sexton started he made Byrnes performance look amazing...


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    #1918
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    We have far bigger problems than the consistent, and probably one dimensional yet error free performances that CJ puts in.

    If you think we need to fix the replacement of CJ as our main priority first then your skipping about 5 bigger problems.

    Far from our biggest problem totally agree. But one of them in my opinion that needs looking at.


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    #1919
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Far from our biggest problem totally agree. But one of them in my opinion that needs looking at.

    CJ is solid.
    He does what he does and he does it well.
    If we got that level of consistency from everyone we would have won today.


    James Ryan hasn’t been talked about, I wasn’t impressed with him today before he went off, and he wasn’t missed when he did go off.


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    #1920
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    TRC10 wrote: »
    I don't think you understand mate. I agree Billy Burns was **** today.



    And today was his chance to impress.

    He had go forward ball and made a mess of it. Our pack was dominant for large periods of his time in the pitch.

    He had a crucial kick to the corner and he made a mess of it.

    He didn’t take his chance and the Irish team is crying out for a new 10.

    He only has himself to blame.


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    #1921
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    And today was his chance to impress.

    He had go forward ball and made a mess of it. Our pack was dominant for large periods of his time in the pitch.

    He had a crucial kick to the corner and he made a mess of it.

    He didn’t take his chance and the Irish team is crying out for a new 10.

    He only has himself to blame.

    I agree with 100% of that, as I think everyone does.

    I disagree with the frankly ludicrous that David Hawkshaw is a better fly half than him, as I think everyone does.


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