Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086085#Comment_120086085

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086120#Comment_120086120

If Baird is as speedy as reported, why shouldn't he get more ball to run with off the scrum etc.

Doris has played very well at 6, so possibly swapping them for scrums would be an idea, or creating moves where Baird gets more chance to run at space.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086183#Comment_120086183

I think if he gets back to where he was he's ahead of Penny which is harsh on Penny.

I think Josh, Connors and Penny are the 3 best 7s in the country which puts Penny in a position similar to Deegan. I think they'd be better off moving where they'll start in Europe.

It's where Coombes(over Deegan) and Hodnett(over Penny) have an advantage. They will start the big European matches while if they were at Leinster they'd be in a similar position to Deegan and Penny.

Deegan and Penny are too good to not be playing in big European games. The other provinces should be doing everything to try and convince them to leave.

6 Deegan 7 Penny 8 Vermeulen in the Ulster backrow would be pretty lethal.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086183#Comment_120086183

Penny is a good player. Connors on form is an international class player. Penny could get there. I would think Hodnett is in the mix too.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086220#Comment_120086220

Sure why not put Mack Hansen at 8 by that logic. He's not an 8

Also spare us the "if as speedy as reported" nonsense. They are called eyes - watch a Leinster match.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086220#Comment_120086220

There's also controlling the ball at the base which is trickier than it looks, especially if the scrum is going backwards(or forwards very quickly).

Conan was very good here at the weekend in a scrum under a lot of pressure.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086284#Comment_120086284

I'd think any Leinster player would be leery of moving to Ulster, hasn't exactly worked out well for those that have

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086332#Comment_120086332

Baird would have no difficulty with that skill I'd imagine.

I'd also like to see Baird on the wing for some moves, think he'd scare the life out of some back-lines!

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086376#Comment_120086376

Yeah I guess that's another problem but who's moved that you'd say has been hard done by?

Jordie moved to get more game time but I don't think he ever hit the high form he had when playing for Ireland.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086384#Comment_120086384

Hard to know really unless he gets a run there. As for using him on the wing I'd imagine if he plays 6 for Ireland he'd be in POMs role and used at the edge where you'd imagine he'd do some damage alright

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086414#Comment_120086414

Bit of a chicken and egg situation maybe? Injuries have had a big impact of course but until recently at least, the quality of coaching appeared rather deficient compared to Leinster. Presume that plays a part.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086376#Comment_120086376

well i reckon if you ask alan o connor, nick timoney or eric o sullivan would they have been better off staying at leinster of moving to ulster, i think to a man they will say the move was worth it.

players will move when they are not getting gametime.

If players are genuine test level players they tend not to move, and theres very few exceptions to the rule that test level players move from Leinster.

Beirne is the obvious exception, and took the circuitous route to ireland caps and also, Cooney was first capped during his move from Connacht to ulster.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086477#Comment_120086477

There are two types of tight five forwards. The ones who come through early or the ones that need a hundred caps to develop.

Beirne needed the development time so did a few others. They always develop more if they move to get gametime.

I was going to post something similar on the Leinster thread, but in general there is too much snap judgment around this place on players (especially young players), who are written off, in some cases, after a single bad performance.

Every single player will have off days. For young guys breaking through, they'll have even more of them. They aren't physically ready in some cases for the step up, aren't as well conditioned, and are often guilty of frequently forcing things and making bad decisions.

This doesn't mean they are bad players, and certainly doesn't mean they're never going to be good enough for bigger and better things.

I would be surprised if Coombes wasn't in the 6N squad tbh. I've been really impressed by him every time I've seen him since the NZ A game, (with the exception of the SA A game where he was flat). Stylistically, he's a different player to our other 8 options, but honestly I think that's a good thing. Ireland have been guilty in the past of becoming predictable and one dimensional, and I like the notion of having the ability to transform the style of play by making a handful of changes.

If you watch Munster play, he's too hard to overlook imo. He just pops up all the time over the past 5/6 games in particular with tries, big carries, and a lot of work in defence.

I heard from guys in the Irish squad that when Tadgh Beirne was a younger player he struggled a bit to take instruction and play within quite structured gameplans. Scarlets got their best from him by deploying him as an 8, and giving him a free pass to target breakdowns and pop up for carries as he saw fit. But when he initially returned to Ireland, and was still struggling to get gametime in an Irish shirt, it was because Schmidt was frustrated with his inability at that time to slot seamlessly into the (highly) structured systems we played with at the time.

Obviously, that dramatically changed, to the point where the guy is now a world class player.

There's nothing to suggest Coombes (or other players) aren't capable of taking on board specifically whatever they're being tasked with working on and breaking through.

leakyboots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084558#Comment_120084558

He stole three in the lineout against Dragons back in March. 15 carries, 16 passes, 2 offloads, 7 tackles, 24 ruck arrivals, 10 in defence, 1 jackal turnover in the same game.

I think some people on here are maybe trying to characterise him as a bit of a lumbering oaf who's good to barrel over from 5m and not too much else of note, they couldn't be more wrong about him.

Someone mentioned Connors being a tackle machine above everyone else - Coombes hit 25 tackles away to Northampton just before Xmas, the most by any player in the Champions Cup this season.

He's got a superb skillset, tackles, carries, tries, lineout, passing, offloading - about the only thing missing is speed á la Van der Flier but we've others who cover that.

What a lot of people are maybe forgetting about the All Blacks A game and the subsequent dropping was he wasn't too long back from injury, he only hit full training around 4 weeks previously for the season. Some players need time to get back to the required level. He mightn't have fully hit his straps yet when that game came along and struggled with the level. Or maybe he just played crap and they dropped him to give him a kick in the arse. It was a strange performance in that game, most unlike him so I doubt he's blacklisted.

Either way he's one of the form backrows in the country at the moment. IMO with the form he's in since November, we'd be mad not to include him but we'll see what Farrell makes of it I guess.

leakyboots

As an aside, we really are blessed with backrow talent across the provinces. There's an amount of combinations who'd do a job at international level with the likes of POM/Doris/VdF/Conan/Coombes/Prendergast/Timoney/Connors/Baird and then others on the fringles like Boyle/Penney/Hodnett/Kendellen/Soroka (is he mainly 6?) and there was a young Ulster backrow recently who caught my eye whose name escapes me and whoever else I've missed or coming through at u20.

connachta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087378#Comment_120087378

Hurley-Langton too coming nicely and will be IQ right on time for RWC 2027

Dubinusa

2027 will be a far different line up. Doris may make it, Coombes too? Then there's Quinn, Culhane and Kendellen. Each of whom could make a serious impact. Mangan too is highly rated! Soroka? Ulster have a trio of top prospects.

Backrow won't be a problem. Just a mass of quality coming through. I haven't even mentioned Prendergast or Deegan. Or Hodnett.

leakyboots

Forgot Deegan completely!

I'm biased but very excited by Hodnett and Kendellen, particularly under the new management where we're being a lot more positive with the ball. The former is in the JvdF dynamo mode - engine, carrier, pace and the latter is a born leader á la POM

The trajectories of the four provinces after this season will be very interesting, there's a lot of talent coming through but new management/coaching/retirements/phasing out of stalwarts will take place.

Dubinusa

I'm excited to see Gleeson. Looks the business. Mangan is highly regarded, we will see fairly soon.

The u20's selection will be interesting.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086284#Comment_120086284

Yea I agree that was hierarchy but not that he needs to move....yet. Even if he hasn't yet played in the Champions Cup. Which is a bit mad.

When you factor in the amount of injuries Connors, vDF and also Penny himself have had, I think he's much better off at Leinster. Particularly because his only viable option is Ulster. He's not going to improve as a player playing in that pack.

Penny was 23 in Sep and I think he will make his debut for Ireland in the next 12-18 months. He may even get in this 6N squad ahead of Timoney.

Connors made his debut v Ita in Oct 2020 6N. He was 24.

(He worked his way ahead of van der Flier at Leinster for that Saracens game in Sep 2020. vdF was too busy working on his ___)

van der Flier made his debut v Eng in 2016. He was nearly 23 and bits were falling off SOB.

Leavy made his debut v Canada in 2016. He was 22 & then made the bench v Eng in '17 after Heaslip 'turned is ankle'

Connors: Leinster/Ireland: 86mins (18-19), 848mins/132mins (19-20), 143mins/301mins (20-21), 51mins (21-22), 172mins (22-23) Total: 1,733mins

vdF: Leinster/Ireland: 847mins/305mins (18-19), 621mins/666mins (19-20), 917mins/364mins (20-21), 1146mins/799mins (21-22), 556mins/160mins (22-23) Total: 6,381mins

Penny: 396mins (18-19), 423mins (19-20), 1008mins (20-21), 852mins (21-22), 441mins (22-23) Total: 3,120mins

Leavy: 524mins/42mins (18-19), , 399mins (20-21), 240mins (21-22), ,Total: 1,205mins

With so little rugby behind Connors over the past two years I'd back Penny to nudge ahead of him this season.

ulsteru20s

Hodnett, Kendellan and Penny are similar to me in that they might be too small. Especially Penny as he plays a style of play that suits a bigger person if that makes sense. Kendellan seems like he could be an outlier at that size but also i wonder. Hodnett’s role is the one that makes more sense. But the guys in the ireland squad with a similar role are lineout threats. I dont think he jumps although kendellan does i think.

Not saying any of them absolutely won’t play for ireland but none of them are the archetype. Kendellan seems the best athlete of the three and is apparently the tallest (i’m dubious of that). If i had to bet on one to get most caps it would be him.

I also feel like as our lock depth gets better that our 6 will be a guy who can play back row or lock. Baird is absolutely perfect for 6.

Also, i read somewhere that hodnett was asked to play hooker (or prop?). He would have been an amazing hooker.

Edit: obviously longer off, but on the EI tour Deeny played lock but looked like a guy who could play 6. Quite a dynamic carrier.

starkid

Coombes is an excellent player. Its just noticable the difference in styles. his lack of zip (for want of a better word) must be the difference in AF's eyes. Doris is just so good at that pace of an international game.

He's unlucky but Ireland have often sidelined big men over the years. maybe its the step up of the quicker game. Costelloe, Browne, Casey, Buckley, , theres a long list of big carrying bruisers that just didn't fit in. i have a feeling Coombes will be similar. We already have talk of Deegan. Coombes is a better rugby playing 8 than Deegan imo, however he too has a similarity to Doris' style that coaches like.

Doris is so good that it kind of makes it a non argument. But Coombes should be in the squad ahead of Deegan and Conan if its purely a rugby numbers game.

AdamD

Leinster fan so don't see every Munster game but I'd rate Hodnett above Kendellan

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097875#Comment_120097875

Both of them are great. The world cup will be a year early. They will both be capped afterwards, imo.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097002#Comment_120097002

If vdF gets injured tomorrow...POM, Dorris, Conan 20.Baird/Prendergast/Coombes?

I think Penny has the power and doggedness to play 6N. I suppose he's more of a groundhog than any of the above (&Connors). Kendellen looks promising but I'm not sure if he has that power. He's still young. Hodnett just turned 24. Good player, he hasn't caught my eye as someone to make that step up. Munster supporters would know more.

And Timoney is still the man those three have to supplant.

Interested Observer

Penny has performed at a pretty exceptional level in the league but he has made basically no inroads into the first 15/23 at Leinster and isn't really on the radar for the Ireland squad. He hasn't ever started a Euro game afaik and he mightn't have even played at all in Europe. I'm not really sure what's going to change for him in the next season or two or three because he's been doing it for Leinster at league level for some time now, and I don't see how he's in the conversation for Ireland at all at the moment. And just to be clear, I think he's class but there's obviously something the Leinster coaches think is keeping him from the next step. And it's not just the players ahead of him, he'd have involvement if they thought he was at that level.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098558#Comment_120098558

Agreed on Kendellan. That’s the worry. Although he is putting on weight i think or at least he looks heavier this year.

I’d go Baird, Doris, POM with Conan on the bench

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098861#Comment_120098861

There’s a thing in baseball where you dont fit the mold or you are too old for your level (not the case for Penny) or your stat profile doesnt seem sustainable where your performance isn’t really trusted and you have to prove it again and again up the levels, and those chances don’t come easily once you reach the majors.

Penny seems like the rugby equivalent of that. On the other hand, once you do prove it, he could play a long time for ireland. Really needs to be good right away though.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097002#Comment_120097002

From what I have seen Hodnett is a far superiour athlete to Kendellan, much more powerful and great pace over 5-10 yards to break tackles. Quick look at the pro 14 stats back this up. Hodnett has 47 carries for 179 metres and 3 clean breaks, Kendellan has 65 carries for 133 metres and 1 clean break. I wish the ERC's stats page was as good as the URC's one!

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099177#Comment_120099177

From what I’ve seen this year, they have different roles. Kendellan carries more tight, and hodnett more wide. But, i see what you mean.