Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098936#Comment_120098936

Love Baird. The only player I think that can come close to Ferris for size, power and pace. However, he still has allot to prove as a backrow and a lock. I hope Leinster stick with him primarily at 6 for the next few years and Edogbo comes through as a lock at Munster.

For now I'd keep him on the bench for max impact.

TRC10

I don't think Hodnett or Kendellan really fit the athletic profile Farrell looks for in his 7s. You look at the guys he's used there. Connors, O'Mahony, Timoney, all big lads. VDF would be an outlier, but he had fallen behind Connors and POM in late 2020/early 2021 and we saw how much he needed to become far more explosive in the tight exchanges to nail down a place.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099333#Comment_120099333

timony is certainly the outlier there. kendellan is as big as him at the moment.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099177#Comment_120099177

I don’t really see all the hype behind Kendellan, good player but I have always thought Hodnett has the ability to be special. Injury has slowed his progress though. After this year I’d be expecting to see him in Irish squads if he can get a good injury free run.

Interested Observer

I haven't seen that much of Kendellan but he played against Leinster last season (or earlier this season) and my main recollection was he kept trying to start scraps. Didn't get him very far.

Dubinusa

Agree re: Penny. He's doing it at league level. I suppose if he had the right players around him, he could do well at the international level. Is his size a factor?

Regarding Hodnett and Kendellan, they both carry well and are skilled. Hodnett reminds me of VDF a few years back.

In the next cycle, there could be bolters involved. There's so many good young lads coming through.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099496#Comment_120099496

Yeah I remember him playing Connacht and Conor Oliver had a go at him, he really went inside himself and looked a bit scared after.

I think he went the opposite extreme then and tried to be a bit of a hard man. It cost him against Ulster? I think with the quick penalty.

Luckily this year he seems to be just focusing on rugby which he needs to do. He's still very young and will learn from all these experiences

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099516#Comment_120099516

I’ve noticed recently that its been very hard to get into the irish back row and be undersized at under 20s. McNabney, Quinn, Culhane, Mangan, Crothers all seem like big dudes.

It could be someone younger and bigger grabs a spot in the next couple of years.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099717#Comment_120099717

From a Leinster PoV I'm very interested to see if/when Culhane makes a breakthrough and plays senior rugby. He's already 20 so not especially young to be getting gametime.

I do think one point on Penny - he's somewhat hard done by by how much he achieved so young. He doesn't turn 24 for another 8 months, and yet has already nearly racked up 50 appearances for Leinster (scoring 25 tries).

To put it in context, Peter O'Mahony and Josh van der Flier made their international debuts at 23, Will Connors was 24 and Nick Timoney was 26.

I don't think it'll happen for Penny in this RWC cycle, but I do think he'll make his Irish debut in the next 12-18 months.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099418#Comment_120099418

Timoney is definitely bigger than Kendellan

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099717#Comment_120099717

Crothers is extremely light, the others you've listed are big guys and could all carry 110 kgs plus easily.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099333#Comment_120099333

Hodnett can be very explosive in the tight exchanges also tho.

But on a larger point, I don’t think Farrell picks specific role-sets for specific positions. It’s more about what combinations across multiple positions deliver.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099496#Comment_120099496

He’s had some outstanding displays in the last 12 months. He was superb against Toulouse last season, for example.

He’s still only 21 and would be in year-3 academy but for Munster offering him a senior deal.

He’s a brilliant prospect.

leakyboots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100888#Comment_120100888

He captained the Ireland u-18s and u-20s and is making inroads into matchday squads at senior level for Munster and still only 21. I'm delighted with his progress, think he's a future captain for Munster after POM hangs up his boots - his career trajectory and leadership reminds me of POM coming through. It's a pity he was ruled out injured for the Emerging Ireland tour

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099956#Comment_120099956

Yea, i dont care about whatever the listed measurements are. Timoney is bigger.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100330#Comment_120100330

Some of them are already there which is pretty nuts.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100888#Comment_120100888

21 years old with 30 senior caps including 8 champions cup ggamesis some going

If people are juding him off this one time they saw him their doing a disservice. He has plenty of areas to inprove and is smaller than youd like but munster have some serious back rows coming through and some think hes the best of them

With re size connors os smaller now id think and kendelland still has to grow into himself

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101854#Comment_120101854

Completely agree. (The “didn’t get him very far” comment is a little silly tbh. He’s a guy with a huge ceiling).

pickarooney

Kendellan is probably heavier but he's a good deal shorter than Connors, for whatever that matters (apart from Connors being a lineout option).

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100802#Comment_120100802

Had a look at the offensive stats of Irish qualified back rows on Rugby Pass for this year. Rugby Pass take a much harsher approach to metres made than the Pro Rugby site but they at least compile ERC stats too.

The top 5 Irish qualified back row ball carriers who have carried over 20 times this season are JVF, Hodnett, Deegan, POM and Doris in that order. Coombes is a very close 6th to Doris. Both Deegan and Coombes have carried far more than the other 4 and their stats suffer from being brought back to the mean as a result. Jack O'Sullivan also has surprisingly brilliant stats on his 18 carries as well (2.8 metres per carry and 4 defenders beaten) and would have made the top 5 if he had carried twice more. VDF is ridiculously far out front with 5 metres per carry, 8 defenders beaten, 3 clean breaks and 4 tries!! Hodnett is also way out from of the rest of the pack with 3.6 mpc, 4 defenders beaten and 2 clean breaks. POM, Deegan, Doris and Coombes are all close with between 2.1 and 2.5 mpc.

Looking back to last year you'd imagine both VDF and Hodnett will come back down to earth when their sample size increases, they had (still very elite) 2.3 and 2.7 mpc last year respectively. POM looks to be having a bit of a statistical anomoly of a year as he only had 1.4 mpc last year.

Statistically Hodnett is clearly an elite ball carrier, he is arguably the best Irish back row ball carrier over the last two seasons at provincial level. Its interesting that Munster still use him from the bench so there must be other areas of his game to improve on, as he looks to be far more of an impact player than JOD atm.

RichieRich_89

I think some people need to actually look at the weights of top opensides before proclaiming anyone is too small. Cane, Kolisi are around 105 kilos, and I think Hooper is only around 102.

Opensides tend to be significantly lighter than 8s. Talk of someone who's around 105 kg and who primarily plays openside being "too light for a top level backrower" doesn't really have much grounding in reality.

Former Former Former

Six Nations squad to be announced next Thursday morning, per Cian Tracey on Twitter

So last chance for a few guys to impress this weekend, or alternatively a few guys have just missed out on their last chance to impress.

Interested Observer

Don't want to be accused of trolling so will discuss here rather than the Munster thread, but fascinating to see Murray dropped for the weekend. It's fully warranted but I'm not sure I can recall a player of his stature being totally dropped for such a relatively unknown quantity in Patterson. Wonder if it'll have an impact on Farrell's thinking.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104133#Comment_120104133

I can’t see Murray falling out of the squad because he provides something different, but Casey might have a chance to grab the 2 spot.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104486#Comment_120104486

Id agree I don't see Murray falling out of the National squad just yet. But it's the beginning of the end for him.

Doak starting for Ulster away to la rochelle is going to show us where he is too.

Poorside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104133#Comment_120104133

Murray offers something completely different to JGP and Casey while Patterson plays in a similar to them, just not as controlled, wouldn't be surprised to see both Murray and Patterson in the wider squad.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104133#Comment_120104133

I can definitely see a scenario where Murray doesn’t make it to the RWC tbh; I’ve been saying as much with regards the possibility of Casey overtaking him, but if Patterson is too, it seems even more of a possibility.

The 2 caveats to that are that 1) Murray offers something very different to the other options which Farrell may value and 2) Farrell is clearly happy to select players who aren’t 1st choice for their Province (maybe ironically going back to JGP over McGrath as an early example).

It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but it wouldn’t be the first time a previously in-favour 9 missed out on a RWC (thinking Tomás O’Leary to Murray himself in 2011).

Fwiw, I don’t think Patterson is near an international call-up at all yet. He’s an absolute live wire and I’m delighted to see him involved for Munster, but I think his pass accuracy is too wayward and his box kicking needs to improve (an area Casey has significantly improved in the last 6-12 months).

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102424#Comment_120102424

Id think shorter and heavier is better again given it should lead to a lower center of gravity which is more important for everything else assuming movment is similar

TRC10

Can't see Murray's dropping having any real impact on Andy Farrell's squad selection. I still very much expect him to named next week and in the 23 v Wales.

What I do wonder is...does Casey being Munster's first choice 9 mean Farrell is ready to trust him to start a test against a tier 1 team? His only start to date was over a year ago against the USA. So if JGP gets injured at the world cup, we'll either have to change our game to accommodate Murray or rely on a very inexperienced Casey. On the two occasions that has happened over the last 18 months, we've done the former. The Australia game was a great opportunity to give Casey a start IMO. Not to mention, Gibson-Park's form has been poor this season, and if that continues into the 6N we could have a problem on our hands.