Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

I agree with 100% of that, as I think everyone does.

I disagree with the frankly ludicrous that David Hawkshaw is a better fly half than him, as I think everyone does.

Hawkshaw is probably not even in the top ten of Irish OH’s . He hasn’t started one game for Leinster at 10 this year.

If you want to debate the sub international 10 versus a 5th choice provincial 10 then your just wasting your time.

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Hawkshaw is probably not even in the top ten of Irish OH’s . He hasn’t started one game for Leinster at 10 this year.

If you want to debate the sub international 10 versus a 5th choice provincial 10 then your just wasting your time.

Someone here said Hawkshaw was a better 10. Not sure if it was you or the other guy

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

Someone here said Hawkshaw was a better 10. Not sure if it was you or the other guy

Time will tell if hawkshaw is international level.

But today has told me that burns isn’t. Not that I needed much convincing

theVersatile

Sometimes I wonder if people equate running around like you've downed a six pack of Red Bull as good Scrum Half play. Yes JGP was quicker than Murray (not that Murray was particularly slow today - I feel like his "glacial" Ness is often overstated) - but some of his passing in that last set of phases was all over the shop.

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Time will tell if hawkshaw is international level.

But today has told me that burns isn’t. Not that I needed much convincing

That may very well be true. And if so, I don't think we have an international level 10. Because Sexton is finished I'm afraid. Hes played 9 games this season and gona off injured in 6 and managed 80 minutes just once. And when he has played hes been very average.

ujjjjjjjjj

TRC10 wrote: »

I agree with 100% of that, as I think everyone does.

I disagree with the frankly ludicrous that David Hawkshaw is a better fly half than him, as I think everyone does.

Of course Hawkshaw isn't 'better' now but see no long term value at all in Burns. Hawkshaw has potential.....

Would I have Hawkshaw in the Irish 23 now , no of course not as we have Carty, Healy, the Byrnes absolutely all ahead of him. But as a young bolter and future investment would I have Hawkshaw in the wider Irish squad ahead of Burns for some exposure, yes.

But right now I' d probably have Sexton, Carty and the two Byrnes in the mix for the two staring slots in the 23.

Lost Ormond

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Of course Hawkshaw isn't 'better' now but see no long term value at all in Burns. Hawkshaw has potential.....

Would I have Hawkshaw in the Irish 23 now , no of course not as we have Carty, Healy, the Byrnes absolutely all ahead of him. But as a young bolter and future investment would I have Hawkshaw in the wider Irish squad ahead of Burns for some exposure, yes.

But right now I' d probably have Sexton, Carty and the two Byrnes in the mix for the two staring slots in the 23.

Hawkshaw shouldnt be in any form of irish squad until he plays with Leinster and actually starts.
Posters here are in as much of a shout of a call up as he is. He has 80 minutes or thereabouts of pro rugby experience. He isnt even a bolter to add to wider squad yet.

ujjjjjjjjj

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Hawkshaw shouldnt be in any form of irish squad until he plays with Leinster and actually starts.
Posters here are in as much of a shout of a call up as he is. He has 80 minutes or thereabouts of pro rugby experience. He isnt even a bolter to add to wider squad yet.

Well maybe it just about shows you where I rate Burns that I even suggested it. I honestly have no idea what anyone including Farrell sees in him and I have sat through endless Ulster games wondering why he is there.

TRC10

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Well maybe it just about shows you where I rate Burns that I even suggested it. I honestly have no idea what anyone including Farrell sees in him and I have sat through endless Ulster games wondering why he is there.

Maybe because a lot of professional rugby coaches rate him as a good out half. And 10 missed kicks to touch today wouldn't have changed that.

ujjjjjjjjj

TRC10 wrote: »

Maybe because a lot of professional rugby coaches rate him as a good out half. And 10 missed kicks to touch today wouldn't have changed that.

Look fair enough obviously someone rates him.....I just personally don't get it....

Anyway enough of poor old Billy Burns......

For me if Sexton isn't about next weekend I would go with Ross and Harry on the bench.

TRC10

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Look fair enough obviously someone rates him.....I just personally don't get it....

Anyway enough of poor old Billy Burns......

For me if Sexton isn't about next weekend I would go with Ross and Harry on the bench.

I don't see what ross Byrne offers (other than kicking ) that billy burns doesn't. You talk about Billy Burns not taking it to the line...I hate to break it to you but I've never seen a 10 play further from the gainline than ross Byrne.

Former Former Former

TRC10 wrote: »

Maybe because a lot of professional rugby coaches rate him as a good out half. And 10 missed kicks to touch today wouldn't have changed that.

He is a good out half. He's just not an international out half.

TRC10

Former Former Former wrote: »

He is a good out half. He's just not an international out half.

Then Ireland dont have an international out half

tgdaly

I get the whole thing about Harry Byrne being very green, I accept that, and it's France next week.

But whether you're winning or losing, if J Sexton gets injured, do you trust any of the other FHs more coming off the bench to see out the game over H Byrne? I wouldn't

Lost Ormond

tgdaly wrote: »

I get the whole thing about Harry Byrne being very green, I accept that, and it's France next week.

But whether you're winning or losing, if J Sexton gets injured, do you trust any of the other FHs more coming off the bench to see out the game over H Byrne? I wouldn't

Yes you would because Harry Byrne has never been in any games near what next weeks will be. 5 minutes in champions cup is all he has played.
Yes i would trust all the others ahead of Harry Byrne right now who has virtuallly no experience of playing in any form of pressurised environment in pro rugby

tgdaly

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Yes you would because Harry Byrne has never been in any games near what next weeks will be. 5 minutes in champions cup is all he has played.
Yes i would trust all the others ahead of Harry Byrne right now who has virtuallly no experience of playing in any form of pressurised environment in pro rugby

But I just don't get the fear in Irish rugby of doing this. I'm not saying Harry Byrne is the messiah, far from it. But how often do you see the likes of France throwing in a 20 year old FH into a game and just letting him have a go. At least you see what they are made of.

I genuinely wouldn't trust any of the other FH, maybe that's just me. And there's no Leinster bias here, sure why not do it with Ben Healy either

prawnsambo

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Yes you would because Harry Byrne has never been in any games near what next weeks will be. 5 minutes in champions cup is all he has played.
Yes i would trust all the others ahead of Harry Byrne right now who has virtuallly no experience of playing in any form of pressurised environment in pro rugby

I actually find it laughable that people are screaming for Billy Burns to never wear green again after making three mistakes in 15 minutes. And then calling for an even greener ten to replace him. Who will inevitably make similar or worse mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Lost Ormond

tgdaly wrote: »

But I just don't get the fear in Irish rugby of doing this. I'm not saying Harry Byrne is the messiah, far from it. But how often do you see the likes of France throwing in a 20 year old FH into a game and just letting him have a go. At least you see what they are made of.

I genuinely wouldn't trust any of the other FH, maybe that's just me. And there's no Leinster bias here, sure why not do it with Ben Healy either

And how often has it worked out for France.
France at least do it with guys who have been playing week in week out with their clubs. Harry Byrne has started 9 pro games.
Why is throwing a very green player into a top level test when we're on the back of a defeat with loads of question marks about the team, coaching team etc going to be a good idea?
It wont.

prawnsambo wrote: »

I actually find it laughable that people are screaming for Billy Burns to never wear green again after making three mistakes in 15 minutes. And then calling for an even greener ten to replace him. Who will inevitably make similar or worse mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Spot on

Brewster

I said it earlier, your mistakes are exposed at this level. You need to make them in order to improve. It amazes me the amount of people who think that Harry Byrne is ready. Harry plays behind a dominating pack and he is regularly involved in 50 point hidings. There is nothing, literally nothing to suggest he should be involved. It’s simply not how international rugby works.

TRC10

Brewster wrote: »

I said it earlier, your mistakes are exposed at this level. You need to make them in order to improve. It amazes me the amount of people who think that Harry Byrne is ready. Harry plays behind a dominating pack and he is regularly involved in 50 point hidings. There is nothing, literally nothing to suggest he should be involved. It’s simply not how international rugby works.

So if you're playing behind a dominant pack you can never be international quality is what you're saying. Should he leave Leinster and go to a crap team? Harry B has shown enough in the games hes played to suggest hes good enough. Hes outplayed virtually every 10 hes come up against, why punish someone for playing for a good team. James Ryan had literally never played a pro game of rugby before playing for Ireland. If he plays behind an Irish pack going backwards and makes errors, that's on the Irish pack, not him.

tgdaly

In fairness though, I do thinks there's a difference between Burns making a mistake (at 26) vs H Byrne or Healy (at 21)

My point wasn't about dropping Burns anyways, I just don't see the harm finding out what young guys are made of. Ntamack and Jalibert are recent examples for France, although I accept they probably had more league experience beforehand (although I don't know that for definite)

Former Former Former

TRC10 wrote: »

Then Ireland dont have an international out half

Well, we do, he's just very old and very fragile.

But hoping/pretending that Burns, R Byrne or Carty can make this quantum leap up is even more futile than persisting with Sexton. They're just not good enough and nothing is going to change that. Dump them, move on, we might strike gold or it might blow up in our faces.

prawnsambo

France is actually an interesting topic wrt out halves. Traditionally it's been the nine that led the game for French teams and the ten relegated to a glorified centre cum kicker. Some of the out halves that have started for France have been inexplicable. Lately, possibly with the influx of more coaches from abroad, the focus seems to have changed and tens have become more important to the game. And this has now developed to the point of having more and more home grown tens popping up. I don't think I can remember France having so many excellent young out halves at the same time. That's the fear for everyone else now.

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

So if you're playing behind a dominant pack you can never be international quality is what you're saying. Should he leave Leinster and go to a crap team? Harry B has shown enough in the games hes played to suggest hes good enough. Hes outplayed virtually every 10 hes come up against, why punish someone for playing for a good team. James Ryan had literally never played a pro game of rugby before playing for Ireland.

Harry Byrne has only ever really played behind very dominant packs with Leinster in set up with time/space he wont get at international level. He hasnt outplayed nearly all he's come up against
Ryan is a second row which is completely different to the pivot and driving force of your attacking play.

tgdaly wrote: »

In fairness though, I do thinks there's a difference between Burns making a mistake (at 26) vs H Byrne or Healy (at 21)

My point wasn't about dropping Burns anyways, I just don't see the harm finding out what young guys are made of. Ntamack and Jalibert are recent examples for France, although I accept they probably had more league experience beforehand (although I don't know that for definite)

Ntamack had far more experience with Toulouse. Nearly double what Harry Byrne and Ben Healy have combined in terms of game appearances.
Its nowhere near the same

Brewster

TRC10 wrote: »

So if you're playing behind a dominant pack you can never be international quality is what you're saying. Should he leave Leinster and go to a crap team? Harry B has shown enough in the games hes played to suggest hes good enough. Hes outplayed virtually every 10 hes come up against, why punish someone for playing for a good team. James Ryan had literally never played a pro game of rugby before playing for Ireland.

That’s not what I am saying. What I am saying is the guy hasn’t been tested at all. He gets an easy ride all the time, so to put him into environment like today just wouldn’t be fair on the kid. He may well be the answer in the future, but he has to prove his mental fortitude in big games for Leinster when under the kosh. He has to prove he can handle the step up by first playing regularly in the Champions Cup. If he thrives in those big moments, then he has a much better chance of stepping up and being successful. His chance will come no question, but Burns is best option we have just now.

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Harry Byrne has only ever really played behind very dominant packs with Leinster in set up with time/space he wont get at international level. He hasnt outplayed nearly all he's come up against
Ryan is a second row which is completely different to the pivot and driving force of your attacking play.

International rugby is harder than pro14 rugby......who knew?!

You're right, we should never gives international debuts to players who have proved themselves at pro14 level..because international is harder

Clegg

It's encouraging seeing both centres looking like viable line breaking threats. Under Schmidt I think our 12 was used mostly as a battering ram to get over the gain line off set piece ball.

But we've seen more variation under Farrell. Henshaw and Aki, when he's played, have roamed about the pitch a bit more and been used in more phase play scenarios.

Ringrose also looks very lively. He's an excellent open field runner and is very good at finding that half gap between defenders and making a metre or two over the gain line. Keeping him fit is key to any sort of success we hope to have. Henshaw and Farrell are decent 13's but neither have the vision or line breaking ability of Ringrose.

Louis Friend

Ian Madigan is the right age and has played in a World Cup.

He’s the perfect stop-gap pending the return of Joey C and the easing-in of Harry Byrne.

RugbyLover123

What does Keith Earls add to the team? A textbook Joe Schmidt winger who’s solid in D and has a decent kick chase.

He has a decent try scoring record that’s been vastly enhanced by tries against the likes of Romania, Russia and Italy. Only scored once against England, France and the big three Southern Hemisphere teams, which is pretty poor for a winger that’s been a constant for 10+ seasons in Ireland’s most successful period. I know he’s had injuries, but still.

When I think of Earls it’s his chase back against Italy in the 6 Nations a few years ago, not his attacking threat. Conway provides much more of an attacking threat. I don’t think he’d be much of a loss if at all if we were to take a punt on a Daly or start Larmour. I mean Earls was hardly safe as houses under the high ball today.

Shame we can’t clone Keenan, thought he was excellent today both sides of the ball.

prawnsambo

I think Jalibert, Carbonel and Ntamack have each over 50 club caps spread over three years.