Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dickie10

i thin we were looking at the two poorest outfits in 6 nations apart from italy. played ok for log parts of first half. unfortunately a lot of what happened was as much as i feared before hand re. sexton and murray. For some reason the irish media who i now believe are clueless in terms of reporting on this irish team, all had us as favourite to win v wales in cardiff where we have been handed a lesson every visit since 2013. There a limited team and got very lucky, but were much smarter in some ways. biggar going for corner a great example in second half . vs 14 men why would you try a 60-40 kick at goal ad maybe come away with nothing, he went for touch , won line out and then a penalty in front of posts , so simple. that was the insurance kick and the winning of the game. wales were always going to get penalty after penalty if the kicked for territirry all day. they were just not good enough to do it all day. England you would imagine would keep tipping away at penalties and go 6-9-12-15-18-21. Its seems to be gone out of fashion for some reason but way to go v 14 men even if they are better skilled team.


Anyway im going to be crazy but we have nothing to lose now and i think farrell should start Billy burns next day instead of sexton , sink or swim , it could be the making of him. Why throw him on scrapheap along with madigan and jackson so quickly. were not overran by number 10s. experiment now when we have the chance, this tournament is over after today as regards us winning anything.

prawnsambo

TRC10 wrote: »

International rugby is harder than pro14 rugby......who knew?!

You're right, we should never gives international debuts to players who have proved themselves at pro14 level..because international is harder

You know that's not the argument here.

TRC10

prawnsambo wrote: »

You know that's not the argument here.

What is?

tgdaly

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Harry Byrne has only ever really played behind very dominant packs with Leinster in set up with time/space he wont get at international level. He hasnt outplayed nearly all he's come up against
Ryan is a second row which is completely different to the pivot and driving force of your attacking play.


Ntamack had far more experience with Toulouse. Nearly double what Harry Byrne and Ben Healy have combined in terms of game appearances.
Its nowhere near the same

Double appearances possibly, but he was also 19 when he made his France debut. Surely the extra 2 years to H Byrne and Healy in a senior set up counts for something.

It's probably a root problem going back to provincial level anyways I suppose. I mean it used to be something we did, Gordon D'Arcy made his Ireland debut at 19 having the played feck all for Leinster, O'Driscoll similar I think? If you believe someone is good enough then they should be old enough. Maybe the coaches don't think that, and that's a totally different story

Louis Friend

Dickie10 wrote: »

i thin we were looking at the two poorest outfits in 6 nations apart from italy. played ok for log parts of first half. unfortunately a lot of what happened was as much as i feared before hand re. sexton and murray. For some reason the irish media who i now believe are clueless in terms of reporting on this irish team, all had us as favourite to win v wales in cardiff where we have been handed a lesson every visit since 2013. There a limited team and got very lucky, but were much smarter in some ways. biggar going for corner a great example in second half . vs 14 men why would you try a 60-40 kick at goal ad maybe come away with nothing, he went for touch , won line out and then a penalty in front of posts , so simple. that was the insurance kick and the winning of the game. wales were always going to get penalty after penalty if the kicked for territirry all day. they were just not good enough to do it all day. England you would imagine would keep tipping away at penalties and go 6-9-12-15-18-21. Its seems to be gone out of fashion for some reason but way to go v 14 men even if they are better skilled team.


Anyway im going to be crazy but we have nothing to lose now and i think farrell should start Billy burns next day instead of sexton , sink or swim , it could be the making of him. Why throw him on scrapheap along with madigan and jackson so quickly. were not overran by number 10s. experiment now when we have the chance, this tournament is over after today as regards us winning anything.

Nah, Scotland are a rabble. The result against England was an aberration. A team that we systematically destroyed at the World Cup 16 months ago. We’re the third best side in the Championship.

prawnsambo

TRC10 wrote: »

What is?

You've played reductio ad absurdum. It's not even an argument, just a way of denigrating a point without actually engaging with it.

mfceiling

Former Former Former wrote: »

They're just not good enough and nothing is going to change that. Dump them, move on, we might strike gold or it might blow up in our faces.

And do what? Throw in a 21 year old who is 3rd choice at his province and has never started against a decent HC side.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny we're not striking gold.

Hand on heart would any poster here be confident of an Ireland victory if Harry Byrne came on against England after 10 minutes for his first cap?

Yeah, me neither.

TRC10

prawnsambo wrote: »

You've played reductio ad absurdum. It's not even an argument, just a way of denigrating a point without actually engaging with it.

No clearly I didn't understand the argument. What was it?

Rugby4568

We’re already probably not going to win the Six Nations we have nothing to lose giving Harry Byrne game time it’ll be invaluable to him. He’s already better than his older brother Ross I’ve no idea why people are so scared to have him playing. What’s the worst that can happen if we drop all those old players and bring in younger players? People say Harry Byrne isn’t ready yet is a load of rubbish. Remember when Sexton started against Connacht and went of with a HIA? He’s too fragile and injury prone Harry Byrne has shown that he’s good enough for international level and we may aswell give him the experience now. He’ll do a much better job than Burns or Sexton that’s for sure. We need to build a squad for the 2023 World Cup and not keep all these old players around. Face it lads Sexton was a great player but he’s past it now he’s finished it’s time for him to go! Move on and build a new team . Our u20s are undefeated in the Six Nations that past 2 years so there is a bright future of talent coming through. We need to be like other countries giving international game time to our younger players asap. England do it, Scotland do it, France have the youngest team in the six nations and look how well they’re doing! There’s no future with this current team of old players that we have they’re finished it’s time to start over and bring in younger players that are actually better than the current old players we have at the minute.

Rugby4568

Don’t tell me Harry Byrne isn’t ready to have game time against a team like Italy, he’s more than ready! He’s better than Sexton, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. End of.

prawnsambo

TRC10 wrote: »

No clearly I didn't understand the argument. What was it?

I just checked there and the poster hasn't deleted it. So maybe you should go back and read it again. A few times if necessary and then you can always reply to it again.

Lost Ormond

Rugby4568 wrote: »

We’re already probably not going to win the Six Nations we have nothing to lose giving Harry Byrne game time it’ll be invaluable to him. He’s already better than his older brother Ross I’ve no idea why people are so scared to have him playing. What’s the worst that can happen if we drop all those old players and bring in younger players? People say Harry Byrne isn’t ready yet is a load of rubbish. Remember when Sexton started against Connacht and went of with a HIA? He’s too fragile and injury prone Harry Byrne has shown that he’s good enough for international level and we may aswell give him the experience now. He’ll do a much better job than Burns or Sexton that’s for sure. We need to build a squad for the 2023 World Cup and not keep all these old players around. Face it lads Sexton was a great player but he’s past it now he’s finished it’s time for him to go! Move on and build a new team . Our u20s are undefeated in the Six Nations that past 2 years so there is a bright future of talent coming through. We need to be like other countries giving international game time to our younger players asap. England do it, Scotland do it, France have the youngest team in the six nations and look how well they’re doing! There’s no future with this current team of old players that we have they’re finished it’s time to start over and bring in younger players that are actually better than the current old players we have at the minute.

Harry Byrne is a shiny new toy. He cant be looked at for Ireland until he is playing regularly in the biggest games for his province. He is third choice and never played against a decent side at provincial level where his forward pack are putting the ball on a platter for him.
You cant push him towards the national team when he has played less than 20 minutes in european competition. If Leinster dont think he's ready for more than that how is he ready to step up to play internationally with a team that will be under even more pressure following todays results.
It makes zero sense.
The under 20s have done very well the last 2 years but in the main most are not ready for pro rugby.
There is loads of examples of Ireland giving very young players international experience and thats when theyve been ready to step up. That isnt the case with a guy whos still clearly thought of as 3rd choice in his province

Rugby4568

mfceiling wrote: »

And do what? Throw in a 21 year old who is 3rd choice at his province and has never started against a decent HC side.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny we're not striking gold.

Hand on heart would any poster here be confident of an Ireland victory if Harry Byrne came on against England after 10 minutes for his first cap?

Yeah, me neither.

Remember when Leavy was deemed as 3rd choice for his province behind VDF and O’Brien and then he got game time for Ireland because they were injured and proved he should be starting for Ireland . That’s what’s gonna happen to Harry Byrne and a lot of other players

Rugby4568

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Harry Byrne is a shiny new toy. He cant be looked at for Ireland until he is playing regularly in the biggest games for his province. He is third choice and never played against a decent side at provincial level where his forward pack are putting the ball on a platter for him.
You cant push him towards the national team when he has played less than 20 minutes in european competition. If Leinster dont think he's ready for more than that how is he ready to step up to play internationally with a team that will be under even more pressure following todays results.
It makes zero sense.
The under 20s have done very well the last 2 years but in the main most are not ready for pro rugby.
There is loads of examples of Ireland giving very young players international experience and thats when theyve been ready to step up. That isnt the case with a guy whos still clearly thought of as 3rd choice in his province

You have a fair point but I see no harm in giving Harry Byrne a cap against Italy when we’re already gonna win the game anyway.

Bazzo

I think there's a case to be made for having one of young 10s in camp. Burns and Byrne aren't the future, Byrne Jr or Healy could replace one of them.

molloyjh

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Don’t tell me Harry Byrne isn’t ready to have game time against a team like Italy, he’s more than ready! He’s better than Sexton, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. End of.

He really isn't. The guys has had mixed performances against bang average P14 sides where his pack was dominant. His performance vs Cardiff for example. Good performances against poor teams a million miles from Test standard isnt a good barometer.

TRC10

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Remember when Leavy was deemed as 3rd choice for his province behind VDF and O’Brien and then he got game time for Ireland because they were injured and proved he should be starting for Ireland . That’s what’s gonna happen to Harry Byrne and a lot of other players

Exactly, and James Ryan. And Tadhg Furlong was behing mike Ross at leinster when he became 1st choice.

ersatz

Deleted User wrote: »

We permanently lost one of our primary jumpers after 15 minutes. I thought it went very well considering to be honest.

I was impressed/relieved that the lineout didn't fall to pieces with both POM and Ryan off, though we lost the first one after Ryan's departure. In the Welsh 22 off a penalty they went for the back and Beard got a hand to it. I would have thought right then was the time to play it safe and prioritise giving the pack a win having just lost two jumpers. That summed up the afternoon for me, sloppy decision making and poor leadership on the field. Still though, there was a lot of good play from Ireland today, just not enough to overcome the really bad stuff.

I thought most of our attack was rudderless, more static pods getting the ball standing still which meant defenders had the momentum. Inside balls when the space wasn't there. I think Henshaw's break for Beirne's try was the only really good line anyone took all day, Italy ran good lines throughout the first half yesterday. Murray's management was so so with a lot of inexplicable kicking. Wales were brutal but they kept their heads and played what was in front of them on defence very well for most of the match. Sexton was ordinary and while I didn't think much of his play in Autumn he seemed to make more of an impression then. Today we needed him to take the game by the scuff. His reaction to is own knock on summed up a lot, instead of acknowledging his mistake to his team mates he looked like a guy looking to blame someone. He often seems deeply frustrated to me these days.

Lots of posters here repeat the mantra that none of the other tens have put their hand up to replace him but a coach simply cannot have that attitude when the out half is as injury prone as JS has been for the last 18 months (never mind the fact that he 35/6/7). An innocuous injury like today's is always a possibility for every player and I hope Johnny makes a speedy recovery but I doubt we will see him in the next month. Burns clearly is not the answer, Carty is not in camp and Byrne will start next week. Does Farrell now ditch Burns and bring back Carty, or look at Madigan, JJ or even Connor Murray? Or will he stick with Burns and hope that today was an aberration? At least you'd hope Carty is brought in. Facing France this is a potentially disastrous situation that was entirely predictable.

JPG brought a bit of speed to his passing but he threw a couple of howlers that cost us 15-20 metres and he seemed to play narrowly rather than using the width of the field, maybe a reason so few people realised Larmour was on. He made it easy for Wales defensively once they stood off the rucks. I'm not sure he is the heir apparent. But no doubt he will bench against France given the OH situation.

Henshaw, Keenan, Ringrose, Beirne, and the front rowers were positives, Lowe was busy and went well with the ball, he's still a work in progress in defence as he was when he joined Leinster, VDF had a so so first half but I thought he played well overall and Hendo was full of beans, though outshone by Beirne. Nothing wrong with that. Most of the rest were anonymous or mia. POM had already given up a really stupid 3 points a few minutes before his implosion. I don't know what happened to him. It was a very bad day for Farrell, obviously the red card blew the gameplan but even before that everything seemed very familiar, here we go again type stuff.

mfceiling

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Don’t tell me Harry Byrne isn’t ready to have game time against a team like Italy, he’s more than ready! He’s better than Sexton, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. End of.

Based on what?

His pro 14 knock out games?

His HC group games?

His HC knock out games... quarter final, semi final, finals?

Or did he throw a couple of good passes after coming on in the 68th minute against the Scarlets?

Rugby4568

molloyjh wrote: »

He really isn't. The guys has had mixed performances against bang average P14 sides where his pack was dominant. His performance vs Cardiff for example. Good performances against poor teams a million miles from Test standard isnt a good barometer.

Well then Leo Cullen should start him in European cup games because some people think he hasn’t been challenged yet. Maybe giving him some game time of the bench against Italy will do no harm. It’ll only be a positive bringing Harry Byrne on against Italy

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Exactly, and James Ryan. And Tadhg Furlong was behing mike Ross at leinster when he became 1st choice.

Sigh, Leavy had been playing plenty for Leinster before getting any call up to Ireland, including HEC games and starting in inter-pros. Same with Furlong. James Ryan is a freak. None are comparable to where Harry Byrne is now. You cant just make up your own facts.

Rugby4568

mfceiling wrote: »

Based on what?

His pro 14 knock out games?

His HC group games?

His HC knock out games... quarter final, semi final, finals?

Well the games he’s played so far anyway. I’d like to see Leinster try and finish the Pro14 with the young guys that have been playing all season and bring only a few experienced players back like maybe James Ryan, Furlong and Keenan. Anyone else think Leinster should start Harry Byrne when we play in the pro14 final at the end of March? That’ll be a real challenge for him

molloyjh

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Well then Leo Cullen should start him in European cup games because some people think he hasn’t been challenged yet. Maybe giving him some game time of the bench against Italy will do no harm. It’ll only be a positive bringing Harry Byrne on against Italy

We dont know that. No matter how much you might assert that you do. I'd certainly advocate bringing him into the Ireland set-up, but once there he needs to show the coaches there is benefit in selecting him on the bench. This bit seems to be something so many of this "play the young lad" brigade always ignores.

Rugby4568

molloyjh wrote: »

Sigh, Leavy had been playing plenty for Leinster before getting any call up to Ireland, including HEC games and starting in inter-pros. Same with Furlong. James Ryan is a freak. None are comparable to where Harry Byrne is now. You cant just make up your own facts.

Ok fair enough. But how do we give these young players a challenge, do you think we should start Harry Byrne in Heineken Cup games? He can’t do anything else to prove he shouldn’t start he’s been in better form than Sexton.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

Sigh, Leavy had been playing plenty for Leinster before getting any call up to Ireland, including HEC games and starting in inter-pros. Same with Furlong. James Ryan is a freak. None are comparable to where Harry Byrne is now. You cant just make up your own facts.

Harry Byrne has shown that hes no worse than Sexton, Burns and his brother at this moment in time and has a higher ceiling than all of them

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

Harry Byrne has shown that hes no worse than Sexton, Burns and his brother at this moment in time and has a higher ceiling than all of them

Harry Byrne isnt ready. He has potential. Potential is great. Its fantastic but that doesnt mean he has any right to be involved right now.
If he cant get past his brother and Jonny in Leinster for their key games he has no right to be picked for Ireland

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Harry Byrne isnt ready. He has potential. Potential is great. Its fantastic but that doesnt mean he has any right to be involved right now.
If he cant get past his brother and Jonny in Leinster for their key games he has no right to be picked for Ireland

Did James Ryan or Brian O'driscoll not have a 'right' to get picked then? I'm not saying hes as good as then but theres nothing our other 10s can do that he cant. Would it be different if he hadn't got injured in the warm up before the Northampton game? If we had an established 10 who was better it would be different, but we dont and its exceptional circumstances. What is there to lose?

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

Did James Ryan or Brian O'driscoll not have a 'right' to get picked then? I'm not saying hes as good as then but theres nothing our other 10s can do that he cant. Would it be different if he hadn't got injured in the warm up before the Northampton game?

They clearly showed in training, lower level matches that they should be picked.
Harry Byrne hasnt yet. He may yet but relax about this. There is far more pressing concerns than trying to call up a 21 year old outhalf with f*** all professional experience to fix things or him gain more experience.

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

They clearly showed in training, lower level matches that they should be picked.
Harry Byrne hasnt yet. He may yet but relax about this. There is far more pressing concerns than trying to call up a 21 year old outhalf with f*** all professional experience to fix things or him gain more experience.

I don't think there are more pressing concerns. Our first choice 10 is 36, not good enough anymore and has played 9 games this season and gone off injured in 6. Why are Harry Byrnes performances at pro14 level not enough. He would have more H cup experience if he didn't get injured pre game v saints and the last 2 games cancelled. So quality performance at pro14 is the best we can hope for right now and he has delivered that. Itll he next year at best before hes "proved himself" at European level. Are we going to wait until then when Sexton is 37?

molloyjh

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Ok fair enough. But how do we give these young players a challenge, do you think we should start Harry Byrne in Heineken Cup games? He can’t do anything else to prove he shouldn’t start he’s been in better form than Sexton.

No he hasn't. He's played substantially easier opposition with a substantially more dominant team around him. You cannot equate the performances.

Harry Byrne looks good. Under normal circumstances he wouldn't be in the conversation, but our alternatives to Sexton right now are poor at Test level. So that forces our hand somewhat.

HB is inexperienced and has the major issue of being behind Sexton and his brother. Both are currently better options for Leinster. But calling him up to the Irish squad is looking more and more possible. He's been with them before so they are looking at him.

But how does that work out for Leinster? Who do they select and what if it isnt Harry? Can Ireland really select a guy not getting big game time with Leinster? Look at what happened to England selecting proven performers who were short on game time...