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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #1982
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    TRC10 wrote: »
    Harry Byrne has shown that hes no worse than Sexton, Burns and his brother at this moment in time and has a higher ceiling than all of them

    He has not shown that at all. Christ, how can a few good games against piss poor opposition show that? Its utter nonsense.


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    #1983
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Hawkshaw looks like serious potential. Genuinely I would rather give him a shot than Burns as every bit of rugby knowledge I have says Burns is just a jobbing Pro 14 outhalf and won't go beyond where he is now.

    Hawkshaw is a fantastic player and certainly one for the future the man just needs time as he’s back from an injury. Hopefully he gets lots of game time in the next few weeks in the pro14. I see his long term position being 12 though but just needs time and no need to talk about him getting international minutes at the moment he needs game time for Leinster in the pro14 but what I’ve seen of him playing for Leinster he’s been fantastic and made an impact every time he’s come on. He needs to show us more of what he’s made of for Leinster in the next few weeks in the pro14. Great potential though certainly a player to look out for.


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    #1984
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    molloyjh wrote: »
    He has not shown that at all. Christ, how can a few good games against piss poor opposition show that? Its utter nonsense.

    I don't know what Harry Byrne can do then, other than leave Leinster and the Pro14. It's not his fault his pack are dominant. But hes done all that's been asked under the circumstances and proved hes the 10 with the highest ceiling.


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    #1985
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    molloyjh wrote: »
    No he hasn't. He's played substantially easier opposition with a substantially more dominant team around him. You cannot equate the performances.

    Harry Byrne looks good. Under normal circumstances he wouldn't be in the conversation, but our alternatives to Sexton right now are poor at Test level. So that forces our hand somewhat.

    HB is inexperienced and has the major issue of being behind Sexton and his brother. Both are currently better options for Leinster. But calling him up to the Irish squad is looking more and more possible. He's been with them before so they are looking at him.

    But how does that work out for Leinster? Who do they select and what if it isnt Harry? Can Ireland really select a guy not getting big game time with Leinster? Look at what happened to England selecting proven performers who were short on game time...
    Harry Byrne is a better option to start ahead of Sexton at Leinster. Sexton should retire he can’t last a full 80 minutes he goes off with an HIA every game he’d be a good sub for Harry Byrne tho. When Sexton started against Connacht he went off after 20 minutes he’s too fragile


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    #1986
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    TRC10 wrote: »
    I don't know what Harry Byrne can do then, other than leave Leinster and the Pro14. It's not his fault his pack are dominant. But hes dont all that's been asked under the circumstances and proved hes the 10 with the highest ceiling.

    People need stop talking about ceilings and the 6'11 Devin Toner has the highest ceiling of any irish player

    We dont know if Harry Byrne does or not because of how little he has been tested. In how many games has he played for Leinster where his pack in front of him wasnt totally dominant? Where his scrum half wasnt able to serve him ball on front foot with loads of time to make his decisions.
    He wont get that at international level. We cant pick him when he cant get into Leinster squads for their biggest games with everyone available.

    Harry Byrne has to play consistently in the european cup and bigger league games and be selected ahead of his brother, frawley, sexton to come into consideration for ireland


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    #1987
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Bit early (actually crazily too soon) to be speaking about Hawkshaw as a potential test player. To date he's had a few rather unimpressive appearances at 10 and a decent cameo at 12.

    Inside centre is probably his best position going by his u20 career. Harry Byrne was the preferred option at 10 iirc. And really he's probably fourth choice 12 at Leinster right now. Behind Henshaw, Frawley and RoL.


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    #1988
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    TRC10 wrote: »
    I don't know what Harry Byrne can do then, other than leave Leinster and the Pro14. It's not his fault his pack are dominant. But hes done all that's been asked under the circumstances and proved hes the 10 with the highest ceiling.

    He has done pretty much all he can. But thats not enough for any of us here to proclaim him ready for Test rugby. Nor is it enough for us to say he'd be better than anyone already there either now or in the future. His injury ahead of the Northampton game couldn't have come at a worse time for him as that may have given us all a better view of him against better opposition.


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    #1989
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,990 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    molloyjh wrote: »
    He has not shown that at all. Christ, how can a few good games against piss poor opposition show that? Its utter nonsense.

    It's well known that a small sample size gives the most reliable results. That's just science.


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    #1990
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Lost Ormond wrote: »
    People need stop talking about ceilings and the 6'11 Devin Toner has the highest ceiling of any irish player

    We dont know if Harry Byrne does or not because of how little he has been tested. In how many games has he played for Leinster where his pack in front of him wasnt totally dominant? Where his scrum half wasnt able to serve him ball on front foot with loads of time to make his decisions.
    He wont get that at international level. We cant pick him when he cant get into Leinster squads for their biggest games with everyone available.

    Harry Byrne has to play consistently in the european cup and bigger league games and be selected ahead of his brother, frawley, sexton to come into consideration for ireland

    That's not going to happen. Because Leo Cullen and leinster have no reason to rush him because they have a very tight ship and a successful team. They also dont have a world cup 2 years down the line that they need to plan for. Sometimes you need to rock the boat. Furlong, Larmour and Ryan would have taken much longer to become the players they became if they weren't backed early for Ireland.


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    #1991
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    Clegg wrote: »
    Bit early (actually crazily too soon) to be speaking about Hawkshaw as a potential test player. To date he's had a few rather unimpressive appearances at 10 and a decent cameo at 12.

    Inside centre is probably his best position going by his u20 career. Harry Byrne was the preferred option at 10 iirc. And really he's probably fourth choice 12 at Leinster right now. Behind Henshaw, Frawley and RoL.

    He’s had a more than a decent cameo if you read his stats he was better than any other player on the pitch when he came on against Connacht and had better stats than Ciaran Frawley when he came on against Scarlets even though he was only on for 9 minutes. I can bring up the stats for you if you want


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    #1992
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Rugby4568 wrote: »
    He’s had a more than a decent cameo if you read his stats he was better than any other player on the pitch when he came on against Connacht and had better stats than Ciaran Frawley when he came on against Scarlets even though he was only on for 9 minutes. I can bring up the stats for you if you want

    Stats on their own aren't a complete picture and can warp reality if not viewed in the proper context. Stats don't tell you about good decision making for example, a pretty key component of a 10s game.


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    #1993
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    TRC10 wrote: »
    That's not going to happen. Because Leo Cullen and leinster have no reason to rush him because they have a very tight ship and a successful team. They also dont have a world cup 2 years down the line that they need to plan for. Sometimes you need to rock the boat. Furlong, Larmour and Ryan would have taken much longer to become the players they became if they weren't backed early for Ireland.

    Why would Cullen and if Cullen isnt going to do it then Ireland and Farrell shouldnt. Furlong, Ryan were clearly better than the alternatives and forced the coaches to pick them for higher levels. Byrne hasnt done that
    Rugby4568 wrote: »
    He’s had a more than a decent cameo if you read his stats he was better than any other player on the pitch when he came on against Connacht and had better stats than Ciaran Frawley when he came on against Scarlets even though he was only on for 9 minutes. I can bring up the stats for you if you want


    So what. He did well in a couple of games.

    They are the exact definitions of decent cameos. You are talking about 9 minutes. Thats nothing. No reason to bring him up to a level he isnt ready for


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    #1994
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Stats on their own aren't a complete picture and can warp reality if not viewed in the proper context. Stats don't tell you about good decision making for example, a pretty key component of a 10s game.

    His long term position is at centre anyway with Harry Byrne at 10. He made some pretty good decisions and a good turnover when he came on as a 12 against the scarlets he scored a good try too. I’d like to see him get more game time at 12 instead of 10.


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    #1995
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    Lost Ormond wrote: »
    Why would Cullen and if Cullen isnt going to do it then Ireland and Farrell shouldnt. Furlong, Ryan were clearly better than the alternatives and forced the coaches to pick them for higher levels. Byrne hasnt done that




    So what. He did well in a couple of games.

    They are the exact definitions of decent cameos. You are talking about 9 minutes. Thats nothing. No reason to bring him up to a level he isnt ready for

    I never said he was ready for a level above pro14? And btw he also played 23 minutes against Connacht


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    #1996
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Lost Ormond wrote: »
    Why would Cullen and if Cullen isnt going to do it then Ireland and Farrell shouldnt. Furlong, Ryan were clearly better than the alternatives and forced the coaches to pick them for higher levels. Byrne hasnt done that




    James Ryan was not clearly better than our 2nd rows at the time (Henderson, Toner, donnacha ryan). Hed never played professional rugby. To say he was clearly better than them is either ignorant or dishonest.


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    #1997
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,820 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Rugby4568 wrote: »
    I never said he was ready for a level above pro14? And btw he also played 23 minutes against Connacht

    Don’t tell me Harry Byrne isn’t ready to have game time against a team like Italy, he’s more than ready! He’s better than Sexton, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. End of.


    That's your words....word for word.


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    #1998
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Burns deserved the 22 jersey yesterday. Anyone who says different hasn't been paying attention. Will be interesting to see what happens with him now though. Jack Carty was unceremoniously dumped from the national side after the Japan loss and his performance had a lot more positives to it than Burns' yesterday. I presume none of the young 10s has been brought in as an "apprentice" as the squad has been kept small due to the covid bubble but then I'd just have one of them in the squad. They've done it with Casey so I see no reason why they couldn't do it with an out half too. JGP also had a very poor cameo I thought. I was screaming for Murray to be subbed off for him for a lot of the match but when he did come on I was begging for Murray back.


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    #1999
    The Inbetween is mine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭The Inbetween is mine


    Just wondering what kind of ban will POM get...4 games, with 2 suspended for contrite and saying sorry?


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    #2000
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    The Inbetween is mine wrote: »
    Just wondering what kind of ban will POM get...4 games, with 2 suspended for contrite and saying sorry?

    I believe it's a 6 week entry point. I would guess he could get it reduced by anything between 1 and 3 weeks.


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    #2001
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    The Inbetween is mine wrote: »
    Just wondering what kind of ban will POM get...4 games, with 2 suspended for contrite and saying sorry?

    They'd be doing us a favour if he was banned for the tournament but reckon that's a stretch. It is his second red card for nearly the same thing this season alone so he shouldn't have the previous disciplinary record going in his favour.


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    #2002
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    They'd be doing us a favour if he was banned for the tournament but reckon that's a stretch. It is his second red card for nearly the same thing this season alone so he shouldn't have the previous disciplinary record going in his favour.

    His red against Scarlets was for 2 yellows(second of which was for a high shot) but the committee cleared him to play IIRC so not sure if that will count towards his disciplinary record.


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    #2003
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The Inbetween is mine wrote: »
    Just wondering what kind of ban will POM get...4 games, with 2 suspended for contrite and saying sorry?
    Entry point for midrange offence in that category is six weeks. That's if it's considered midrange. Normally would expect 50% reduction for good disciplinary record etc. but not sure he'll get the full allowance considering similar offence this season.


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    #2004
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    He did the same thing vs NZ in the World Cup when we had them on their line and ending up having a penalty reversed. It’s something he needs to cut out of his game.


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    #2005
    Rugby4568
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Rugby4568


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Don’t tell me Harry Byrne isn’t ready to have game time against a team like Italy, he’s more than ready! He’s better than Sexton, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. End of.


    That's your words....word for word.

    I was talking about Hawkshaw there saying he isn’t ready for a level above pro14 and I still do think Harry is a better player than Ross, Sexton and Burns I don’t take back what I said


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    #2006
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    The squad isn't going to change for France.

    However if we lose against France then who knows. There is an argument to bring Harry Byrne into the broader squad so they can have a good look at him, but that is probably happening in the background anyway.

    To be fair we need to keep things in perspective. We were the better team yesterday and should have won even with a man less for 60 odd minutes. I'm actually reasonably confident we are moving in the right direction. Anyone who says we just played the same boring rugby clearly were not watching or just had pre conceived ideas that they can't shift.

    Unfortunately because we lost to Wales it gives those opposed to Farrell a lot of ammo, but if you look at it objectively you'd know there were pretty obvious reasons outside the coaching teams control yesterday to explain our defeat.


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    #2007
    The Inbetween is mine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭The Inbetween is mine


    I think if people are throwing Byrne into the squad, then we have to wonder about Ben Healy being involved as well.
    Arguably a higher ceiling and looks just so smooth and confident with ball in hand, his kicking ability is there for all to see already


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    #2008
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    The Inbetween is mine wrote: »
    I think if people are throwing Byrne into the squad, then we have to wonder about Ben Healy being involved as well.
    Arguably a higher ceiling and looks just so smooth and confident with ball in hand, his kicking ability is there for all to see already

    The issue with both H.Byrne and Healy is that they are 3rd and 2nd choice for their province. Healy is behind a player who isn't in the Ireland squad so how can he be considered for Ireland? The same applies to Harry Byrne...albeit the players he is behind are at least in the Ireland squad, but if we're honest, if anyone is going to come into the Irelamd squad it will Jack Carty


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    #2009
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    There are different discussions if Sexton is available or not really. There is absolutely zero point in benching Sexton for Burns/Carty/RByrne. He is better than them now and none of them will ever be great at international level. If Sexton is unavailable next week I suspect R Byrne will start and that seems reasonable until Sexton is available again.

    However, if you are genuinely talking about a succession plan and benching Sexton for that reason, or looking full bore to the future with him unavailable, then there is logic in just going all in and shoving in H Byrne. Massive risk, but the upside is far higher than the other options.


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    #2010
    OneLungDavy
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    The Inbetween is mine wrote: »
    I think if people are throwing Byrne into the squad, then we have to wonder about Ben Healy being involved as well.
    Arguably a higher ceiling and looks just so smooth and confident with ball in hand, his kicking ability is there for all to see already


    I've seen nothing from Healy to suggest he's near international quality. He looks a very solid kicker but the rest of his game needs a lot of work.


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    #2011
    The Inbetween is mine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭The Inbetween is mine


    bilston wrote: »
    The issue with both H.Byrne and Healy is that they are 3rd and 2nd choice for their province. Healy is behind a player who isn't in the Ireland squad so how can he be considered for Ireland? The same applies to Harry Byrne...albeit the players he is behind are at least in the Ireland squad, but if we're honest, if anyone is going to come into the Irelamd squad it will Jack Carty

    Healy being behind JJ is not the issue.... We've had player's play for Ireland before their province if were going down that road.
    Healy is the rising star, it would be folly to stunt his development now...being him into the squad and let him show his worth


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