Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261161#Comment_120261161

He's been nominated for European Player of the Year. He's second for tries scored in Europe, first for tackles made and third for carries. He's performing at the highest possible level currently available to him.

pickarooney

If it were just up to me and based on what I see in games I'd have Coombes benching against Italy and coming on for POM early in the second half. I'd be really curious as to how he and Doris play together and which of them would be better at 6 and which at 8. It could be a lethal combination or it could be a mess.

As an individual I can't see many parts of his game which are sub par but the back row is a very finely balanced unit and swapping out players with very different styles might ruin that balance.

If Doris were unavailable I think Coombes would be the best fit as a like for like replacement but I wouldn't necessarily say the same if POM was out.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261268#Comment_120261268

Right. The performances in Europe have (rightly) earned him a spot in the squad.

Whatever he needs to do, and I have no idea what that is, he needs to do to for Farrell and POC. So far, there's no evidence that he is doing so.

Like, when Larmour scorched in for a try in the corner last night, I doubt anyone thought that was going to be enough to displace Hansen because we all know and have known for ages that Larmour can step defenders and burn them for pace. Seeing more of it against dogsh1t opposition doesn't move the needle one bit for Ireland.

Likewise for Coombes, the answer to "what more does he have to do" won't be seen in a red jersey.

Wegians89

Would like to see JOB or Hansen given a run at 15, Prendergast or Baird at 6 and Byrne start at 10 against Italy. Can keep everything else the same

stephen_n

If Coombes is to get a run this 6N, I’d prefer it to be against England. We could probably use his bulk in that game more than Italy. Also it’s always the same against Italy, he could play well and it’s only Italy.

Since getting dropped, he has responded well and is in excellent form. It will be interesting to see what the coaches make of that. Has he done enough to dislodge Conan. Can he actually compliment VDF and Doris in a backrow.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261678#Comment_120261678

Since getting dropped, he has responded well and is in excellent form

This is the main thing. He will have been told why he was dropped and the question is not whether he is excelling elsewhere but whether he has addressed that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261465#Comment_120261465

And if we reduced every argument to that, there wouldn’t be much use for a rugby forum.

Ultimately, there’s a very credible argument for Coombes’ inclusion in the 23. People are entitled to that opinion. And it can be made independently of whether Farrell picks him or not.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261268#Comment_120261268

Remember, Deegan was out injured for about 6 weeks.

Larbre34

Theres no chance that Coombes first run will be against England. Potential injuries aside, if he doesn't feature prior to England, he won't feature against them either.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261790#Comment_120261790

And if we reduced every argument to that, there wouldn’t be much use for a rugby forum.

That's a pretty sh1tty response when I've explained my position in great detail.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, I'm disagreeing with it.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261916#Comment_120261916

Your position is simply an appeal to authority. "He's not there because the head coach hasn't seen enough in training"

As aloooof suggests, it potentially closes the door on any debate about what other players should be in the team.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261987#Comment_120261987

I don’t think that was FFFs point. I think he was just being realistic.

For me this coaching group has shown more than any other a willingness to drop guys and then bring them back in when they feel it’s warranted. Coombes is an example of that, albeit in a wider squad context rather than in a match day selection context. And so from that perspective it’s more than fair to talk about the coaches perspective when looking at this. Clearly Coombes hasn’t done enough in camp to displace anyone in the 23 currently. The big problem is we don’t know exactly why and likely never will. That automatically limits the discussion we can have on it. Because the most relevant information simply isn’t available to us. It’s only fair and right to acknowledge that.

Coombes has been playing well. As has JOB and, to a lesser extent, Larmour. JOB has even delivered at tier 1 test level. And still can’t make the 23. Coombes isn’t alone in this situation. We’ve a very competitive squad and a coaching group that seems to be very good at managing the people and the culture. Given where we are at the moment we have to believe there’s a good reason that Coombes isn’t in. What more can he do has been asked here and elsewhere. The simple answer is that we don’t know. But it is also fair to say that delivering performances we already knew he was capable of against poor teams like that Ospreys side likely changes nothing at all.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261916#Comment_120261916

No intention to be sh1tty (and not really seeing what I’ve said that is tbh).

Also, I think you’ve missed my point a bit. It’s possible to acknowledge that, if he doesn’t get picked, he hasn’t done enough to convince Farrell, while simultaneously thinking he should be picked.

Those positions can be held completely independently.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261987#Comment_120261987

It's not an appeal to authority, or maybe it is, I'm not sure it matters.

If Coombes is doing he all can in a Munster jersey, but can't get into the Ireland squad, then that leaves two possibilities.

1. He needs to do more and show something else in Ireland camp.

2. He's doing everything Farrell is asking of him and it's still not enough.

Is there a third possibility?

Because if there isn't, then Coombes had better hope it's option 1.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262107#Comment_120262107

And so from that perspective it’s more than fair to talk about the coaches perspective when looking at this

It is, and I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who has said it isn’t.

It’s also more than fair to say “I think Coombes deserves a spot in the 23”.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262261#Comment_120262261

Sure, that's fair. But ultimately it also means he deserves it more than Conan so that's the argument that needs to be made, cause there are only so many spots.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262305#Comment_120262305

Yep. And that’s the argument I have made previously, and would make now too.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262337#Comment_120262337

And I personally can see that argument.

A good question would be what is Coombes doing better now than he was doing when he was dropped from the squad in Nov (and he was dropped whatever people try and say about him being released to play for Munster).

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262199#Comment_120262199

Agreed. We know nothing about irish training camp performance and what's expected. Tactical and balance as well.

I think it's just a matter of time for Coombes, but just not yet. Bloody great discussion to be having!

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262343#Comment_120262343

For me, we’ve continued to see his try scoring, heaving carrying, jackalling and offloading / hands. (And there’s an argument he’s upped that level).

But one area he’s improved is his tackling. And his stats overall for the 4 European games are crazy good. (I have them somewhere, will post them when I get a chance, but you only need to look at Tom’s post above to get an idea).

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262261#Comment_120262261

Deserves is a strange word to use though. If he deserves a spot, who does he deserve it more than?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262447#Comment_120262447

Conan, for me. I think he [Coombes] is in better form.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262450#Comment_120262450

Based on what? Comparison to club form? Conan was excellent against France last week.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262471#Comment_120262471

In short, yes. I get the argument that Conan has credit in the bank. I’d still go for Coombes.

Especially against Italy where you have a little more leeway.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262261#Comment_120262261

I was referencing the “closing the door to debate” element of the post I quoted with that. It isn’t closing the door to debate, it’s calling out the most important part of it.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262486#Comment_120262486

Little more leeway and less to learn. As I said earlier, I’d prefer to see Coombes against England where we might need more bulk.

The reality is though, at the moment none of the Irish Backrow are underperforming. So it’s very much about what’s happening in camp. Do the coaches feel Coombes will add value to the team. Deserves has nothing to do with it really.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262510#Comment_120262510

I dunno, I’d be pretty certain if he manages to get on the bench vs Italy, there’ll be plenty of people saying he deserves it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262490#Comment_120262490

It’s also calling out possibly the least interesting part? Like I said, almost every argument on here could be reduced to that.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262510#Comment_120262510

Coombes is a big guy but he doesn't play like a big guy a lot of the time. He tends to migrate to the wider passages rather than the tight exchanges.

I feel that Dan Sheehan is the man with the carrying style most like Coombes.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262565#Comment_120262565

No offence or anything but you're accusing me of "reducing arguments to that" and the best alternative explanation you can offer is "Conan has credit in the bank".

You'll forgive me if I call that a serious case of pot and kettle.