Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ClanofLams

Keenan and Henshaw did well. Thought the pack did a pretty good job too. Wales are a long long way off the Gatland era though.

Called Ireland getting one win out of 5 on here few weeks ago and seems pretty likely now.

Two years out from the World Cup it’s time for freshness at the helm, should have happened after RWC 19 but for short sighted IRFU decision to make appointment of someone who had never been head coach at any level when Ireland were riding high.

Better to do it now and give new coach a proper run in to World Cup than twelve months time.

VANG1

Is it not the coaches job to improve players. Ross Byrne has a lot of plus points, like his kicking, goal kicking and his defence. Surely his running game can be worked on. He definitely is a cool customer and don’t think he would have lost the plot on Sunday. He was very unfortunate to play his games against a rampant England at Twickenham. He should get a game against Italy at least.

accensi0n

Is there a younger younger byrne in primary school maybe, that could be brought in?

TRC10

bilston wrote: »

The issue with both H.Byrne and Healy is that they are 3rd and 2nd choice for their province. Healy is behind a player who isn't in the Ireland squad so how can he be considered for Ireland? The same applies to Harry Byrne...albeit the players he is behind are at least in the Ireland squad, but if we're honest, if anyone is going to come into the Irelamd squad it will Jack Carty

The issue with this argument is that Leinster and Munster both have completely different agendas to the Irish national team. Leinster and Munster dont have a world cup in 2 years that they desperately need to bed in a new put half for. We could be waiting until next year for harry Byrne to become 1st choice for leinster, because Leinster have no need to rush him.

Again I'll use the examples of tadhg Furlong and james Ryan. Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe so they had no need to rush them into the first team. But when they were fast tracked into the ireland team, they showed immediately that they were world class. Ireland cant afford to wait for Harry Byrne to be leinsters first choice.

Podge_irl

TRC10 wrote: »

The issue with this argument is that Leinster and Munster both have completely different agendas to the Irish national team. Leinster and Munster dont have a world cup in 2 years that they desperately need to bed in a new put half for. We could be waiting until next year for harry Byrne to become 1st choice for leinster, because Leinster have no need to rush him.

Again I'll use the examples of tadhg Furlong and james Ryan. Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe so they had no need to rush them into the first team. But when they were fast tracked into the ireland team, they showed immediately that they were world class. Ireland cant afford to wait for Harry Byrne to be leinsters first choice.

Mike Ross was brought in to start for Ireland in the 6N after being out of the Leinster squad for Moore and Furlong in the HEC for Leinster.

TRC10

Podge_irl wrote: »

Mike Ross was brought in to start for Ireland in the 6N after being out of the Leinster squad for Moore and Furlong in the HEC for Leinster.

That was in a world cup year, when Ross was going to irelands first choice at the WC. When MO'C left leinster, ross became 1st choice again under leo in 2016. So although ross was leinsters 1st choice in 2016, Schmidt knew that he had to blood Furlong because Ross wasnt going to be there in 2019. Same thing with Sexton now.

lawrencesummers

So what changes for next week?

Sexton might not be available.
James Ryan also could be out
POM could be suspended

Players who will automatically start.
Porter, herring, Beirne, CJ, Murray, Henshaw, Ringrose, Keenan.

There could be a change in the starting and benching props, but I expect we will see Furlong, Healy, Porter, Killer all playing a part.

I’m not convinced by either winger, Larmour might start?

If Sexton is out then who starts? Burns?
Presumably Hendo starts if James Ryan is out and Roux comes onto the bench.
Is Deegan available?

Starting Connors for his tackling ability could be a shrewd move to stop French momentum.

mfceiling

One thing I noticed yesterday was Johnny passing while standing completely stationary. He basically got the ball, turned at his waist and threw it on.

Not having a go at Johnny who went ok but we're still not taking the ball at pace. In school the ball was always passed slightly in front of you to run on to it....we still have a lot of static play and defences eat that up all day.

The other thing that stuck in my craw was Murray's aimless box kick near the Welsh 10 metre line. Welsh player took a mark, bit of kick tennis and then we are taking a line out on our 22. A couple of minutes later Wales score a try. Can't understand the mentality of that kick when 9 times out of 10 the defender will catch it and call a mark. That's your attack over right there.

theVersatile

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So what changes for next week?

Sexton might not be available.
James Ryan also could be out
POM could be suspended

Players who will automatically start.
Porter, herring, Beirne, CJ, Murray, Henshaw, Ringrose, Keenan.

There could be a change in the starting and benching props, but I expect we will see Furlong, Healy, Porter, Killer all playing a part.

I’m not convinced by either winger, Larmour might start?

If Sexton is out then who starts? Burns?
Presumably Hendo starts if James Ryan is out and Roux comes onto the bench.
Is Deegan available?

Starting Connors for his tackling ability could be a shrewd move to stop French momentum.

Roux left camp with Doris, so it would be Dillane on the bench

ClanofLams

gally74 wrote: »

Hello, i though CJ was the best he has been in while.

Total neutral here as a Conn supporter, and we dont seem to be part of ireland anymore in Rugby terms anyway,

Henshaw, Beirne, CJ, I thought were outstanding,

Some very poor penalties from some of the old guard. the constant my province vs yours is very poor on this thread,

If its all about leinster, just rename the team and get on with it,

Yeah agree on Beirne & Stander. Connacht supporter also, don’t think anyone was especially hard done by, Marmion has never gotten a fair crack throughout his career but with Blade ahead of him currently (albeit after Marmions bench appearance against Dragons, think that could shift again, obviously narrow margin either way), can’t complain now.

I have always thought Farrell was a poor appointment and unfortunately haven’t changed mind. Not sure how anyone could think he is best coach Ireland could get to lead them to next World Cup, whereas Schmidt clearly was at same stage in last cycle. It seems Schmidt and himself think very similarly about the game, that has shaped Ireland’s style for last decade (successfully so for most of it) but fresh outlook would help now.

sydthebeat

gally74 wrote: »

Hello, i though CJ was the best he has been in while.

Total neutral here as a Conn supporter, and we dont seem to be part of ireland anymore in Rugby terms anyway,

Henshaw, Beirne, CJ, I thought were outstanding,

Some very poor penalties from some of the old guard. the constant my province vs yours is very poor on this thread,

If its all about leinster, just rename the team and get on with it,

i think the lack of self awareness on social media right now is as prevalent as the virus....

briandebum

So if we lose to France at the weekend, our tournament is as good as finished.

Lets look ahead to the world cup. At outhalf we will have a 37 year old who seemingly gets treatment every match and never lasts the full 80. I don't think R. Bryne or Burns are international quality and being in their mid-20's, I don't think we can expect any massive improvements from them. Sad as it is, until proved otherwise, Carberry's body cannot be relied upon.

Leaving aside whether or not you think the Harry Bryne is ready, I think you throw him in there. Hell I'd even bring Crowley into the training squad, get more information on a potential solution. Expose them to a high intensity international match, where even if we lose the match it's not the end of the world.

I think they we're far too conservative blooding young players. We only have 4 professional teams, at the moment they are successful in the league. It's not to their benefit to throw young players in there when they can still win matches with Burns & JJ Hanrahan. Therefore, the 'let them get gametime for their provinces' shtick doesn't hold up for me.

Crowley & Bryne are both 21, look at the age of the players that the French are blooding. It's an exceptional situation where the majority of our succession plans have failed (Haven't even mentioned Jackson or even Bleyendaal.).

We need to find Sexton's successor and soon.

AdamD

Podge_irl wrote: »

He bloody wasn't. He chose the attack options well, kicked his goals well, attacked the line well when needed, put through kicks well when needed.

He kicked a penalty out on the full (poor) and got turned over in contact (not great).

He was average, which is still better than the other alternatives.

Right. But I think its a fair question to ask - is it worth sticking with a 35 year old who has been playing average rugby for quite a while? His game isn't going to improve and we need to plan for the future.

Seems inevitable at this point that we'll rock up to the next world cup with a 10 who has played few big games for Ireland.

lawrencesummers

theVersatile wrote: »

Roux left camp with Doris, so it would be Dillane on the bench

Surely there is an ability to call players back in?

theVersatile

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Surely there is an ability to call players back in?

Indeed, but unless we hear otherwise we're operating on the assumption that the two of them are unavailable for the next game. Maybe there's a squad update later this week which says he's back in, in which case f'n brilliant. But until then it's safe to presume he'll be gone.

Podge_irl

AdamD wrote: »

Right. But I think its a fair question to ask - is it worth sticking with a 35 year old who has been playing average rugby for quite a while? His game isn't going to improve and we need to plan for the future.

Seems inevitable at this point that we'll rock up to the next world cup with a 10 who has played few big games for Ireland.

Burns/RByrne/Carty can play as many games as you choose for Ireland, they won't be very good. Sexton may or may not be better than them come the next world cup (I would expect not) but he's better than them now and they show no sign of being the long term future.

Mimon

Podge_irl wrote: »

Burns/RByrne/Carty can play as many games as you choose for Ireland, they won't be very good. Sexton may or may not be better than them come the next world cup (I would expect not) but he's better than them now and they show no sign of being the long term future.

No he isn't.

prawnsambo

Mimon wrote: »

No he isn't.

Well argued. Your logic is inescapable.

Louis Friend

We’re not New Zealand. There isn’t a queue of world class outhalves behind Johnny Sexton. We should stick with Johnny, hope that Joey comes back, bring Ian Madigan back as a stop-gap and back Harry Byrne as the longer-term successor.

If you combined Carty, Ross Byrne, and Burns, you still wouldn’t have a decent outhalf. None of them are good enough. Burns should never play for Ireland again. He was a disgrace on Sunday. We don’t need to be importing rejects from the RFU.

Podge_irl

Mimon wrote: »

No he isn't.

Carty is incredibly inconsistent. Burns runs to the line well and his passing is great but his decision making and kicking are questionable (as we saw yesterday, a great pass to noone isn't a great pass). Byrne is great at kicking in behind and passing but can't attack the line to save his life. You don't threaten the line even a little at international level and defences just drift out from you. Sexton, even at his current vintage, is passable at all these things while still being the best of all of them in defence.

An attack with Byrne starts 10m further back, an attack with Burns has the propensity for terrible kicking and poor decision making we have just seen and a team with Carty is prone to be amazing or awful with equal measure. Sexton remains the best choice for now.

Lost Ormond

Louis Friend wrote: »

We’re not New Zealand. There isn’t a queue of world class outhalves behind Johnny Sexton. We should stick with Johnny, hope that Joey comes back, bring Ian Madigan back as a stop-gap and back Harry Byrne as the longer-term successor.

If you combined Carty, Ross Byrne, and Burns, you still wouldn’t have a decent outhalf. None of them are good enough. Burns should never play for Ireland again. He was a disgrace on Sunday. We don’t need to be importing rejects from the RFU.

Burns isnt a reject from RFU.
We do need to work more on finding replacement for Sexton but Ian Madigan isnt a solution. Harry Byrne cant be backed as long term successor unless he gets clear of his brother and is playing regularly in europe etc. He isnt even clear 2nd choice with Leinster now.
Ben Healy may also come into contention in time as he will likely be Munster's first choice 10 espeically if Carbery isnt back any time soon
Talking about combining carty etc and not having a decent outhalf is nonsense.
Of course Burns should play for Ireland again if he performs well in training and when playing with Ulster.
If we were to have that attitude with every player ROG wouldnt have got near 100 caps, same with Sexton. Ross Byrne wouldnt play for Ireland again etc etc

bilston

Louis Friend wrote: »

We’re not New Zealand. There isn’t a queue of world class outhalves behind Johnny Sexton. We should stick with Johnny, hope that Joey comes back, bring Ian Madigan back as a stop-gap and back Harry Byrne as the longer-term successor.

If you combined Carty, Ross Byrne, and Burns, you still wouldn’t have a decent outhalf. None of them are good enough. Burns should never play for Ireland again. He was a disgrace on Sunday. We don’t need to be importing rejects from the RFU.

A disgrace...wise up...he made a mistake...that's all. Jonny Sexton made exactly the same mistake earlier in the match.

People need to catch themselves on.

Dubinusa

Billy Burns is not a reject from the RFU. JAYSUS he had a bad outing!! Should we execute him?
He is also a fine player. I watched several Ulster matches this year and he has been very good. He shouldn't be dismissed over a bad outing. Murray wasn't!

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

A disgrace...wise up...he made a mistake...that's all. Jonny Sexton made exactly the same mistake earlier in the match.

People need to catch themselves on.

Another way to look at it is that we should never have been in the position where we needed a 7 pointer at that stage of the game.

Its easy, and dare I say lazy, to blame the loss on Burns. There were a lot of individual errors. And we could have managed with a certain combination of them. But all of them together in one game as well as the loss of Ryan to injury was just too much overall.

Podge_irl

bilston wrote: »

A disgrace...wise up...he made a mistake...that's all. Jonny Sexton made exactly the same mistake earlier in the match.

People need to catch themselves on.

While I agree that there is too much focus on that particular mistake, he made a lot more than that and kicking out a penalty on the full with 30 min to go is a lot different from doing it time expired.

Dual wheels

Louis Friend wrote: »

We’re not New Zealand. There isn’t a queue of world class outhalves behind Johnny Sexton. We should stick with Johnny, hope that Joey comes back, bring Ian Madigan back as a stop-gap and back Harry Byrne as the longer-term successor.

If you combined Carty, Ross Byrne, and Burns, you still wouldn’t have a decent outhalf. None of them are good enough. Burns should never play for Ireland again. He was a disgrace on Sunday. We don’t need to be importing rejects from the RFU.

100% right, as I keep saying if he was good enough England would have capped him, I think we can all agree he’s not sextons replacement so why was he brought into the squad when we have 3 solid home grown outhalves in Ross Byrne hanrahan and carty, carty was brought to the WC so he must have done something right
Why have we constantly been looking elsewhere for a new ten, bleyndal was even being lined up before he got injured
I would even consider keatley to be brought in to start next week ahead of burns
At the end of the day we have keatley Jackson and madigan who are all better options than burns

OldRio

Time and trust should be given to another number 10. Whoever that is. That time should begin now.
Invest in the future because the clock is ticking down to the next World Cup. We cannot go into it with a 30 odd year old number 10 whos body won't hold up.

bilston

Podge_irl wrote: »

While I agree that there is too much focus on that particular mistake, he made a lot more than that and kicking out a penalty on the full with 30 min to go is a lot different from doing it time expired.

I know he had a bad game, and I don't think he is Ireland's long term answer..but I just get annoyed with comments such as "he is a disgrace"..."should never wear an Ireland Jersey again".

Lost Ormond

Dual wheels wrote: »

100% right, as I keep saying if he was good enough England would have capped him, I think we can all agree he’s not sextons replacement so why was he brought into the squad when we have 3 solid home grown outhalves in Ross Byrne hanrahan and carty, carty was brought to the WC so he must have done something right
Why have we constantly been looking elsewhere for a new ten, bleyndal was even being lined up before he got injured
I would even consider keatley to be brought in to start next week ahead of burns
At the end of the day we have keatley Jackson and madigan who are all better options than burns

JJ Hanrahan is in no way any consideration for an irish call up. good enough to be called up for irish squad.
Talking about Keatley, Madigan and Jackson all arent good enough/not going to be called because theyre abroad. Its pointless mentioning them. They werent good enough when here apart from Jackson who wont be called up for reasons that dont need to be named.

Dual wheels

Lost Ormond wrote: »

JJ Hanrahan is in no way any consideration for an irish call up. good enough to be called up for irish squad.
Talking about Keatley, Madigan and Jackson all arent good enough/not going to be called because theyre abroad. Its pointless mentioning them. They werent good enough when here apart from Jackson who wont be called up for reasons that dont need to be named.

Hanrahan should be in consideration he’s better than burns