Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267487#Comment_120267487

I never said it wasn't happening... I also never said it was just on twitter.

My point was that there were many years when the perception was just the opposite on the Leinster side, when wearing a red jersey allowed you to walk straight on the team (poor Ulster and Connacht fans have only ever felt one side of this).

I'm not going to pretend that it was utopia with fans, there were plenty who were extremely annoyed at backups for Munster starting over others, at times who were actual starters in Leinster HC winning teams. No one has however corrected my assertion that there was not regular similar claims of being disconnected or alienated from the team. I think a large part of that is social media and content creators that push certain narratives - like this one. I'd argue that a random 'fan' who decides to email off the ball consumes enough media to be exposed to those narratives.

There could be situations where people are justified in feeling disconnected with a team due to an outlandish selection, however why I can rightly or wrongly dismiss it as driven by what I said this time is because no one has yet been able to put together a clear case as to why Penny was the wrong choice. There are pros and cons to both players - Hodnett more European experience, Penny more overall experience and a better EI tour. It is a marginal call and if this makes you disconnected from the Irish team then you are just looking for an excuse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267525#Comment_120267525

Yeah, well forgive me for not taking your opinion on Penny's skillset too seriously when back in December you thought Jamie Osborne "didn't seem that big or that fast".

Funny as well how the 6ft 102kg Scott Penny is undersized, but the 6ft 105kg John Hodnett isn't.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267584#Comment_120267584

I never said Penny didn’t rack up a lot of minutes. That doesn’t make him Leinster’s 2nd choice 7.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267531#Comment_120267531

So there should be quotas to keep the fans of other provinces invested? Was there an emotional disconnect when Munster completely dominated Irish selections in the 2010’s?

Irish management shouldn’t select based on any provincial basis. They should select the players most likely to win. Something they seem quite good at.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267619#Comment_120267619

Aren’t you usually the stats guy. Usually, you’d be right in there with a side by side wee comparison that proves Penny is better. What happened?

Hodnett is a special runner on the edge. That’s an elite skill that’s highly prized. Penny is special at scoring close in tries which isn’t exactly the most prized skill. But the fact that you have nothing actually to say about Penny tells me everything i need to know.

Penny should play because leinster are good so Penny shouldn’t have to actually prove anything himself. Because Leinster are good. It’s flawless logic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267574#Comment_120267574

I'm still dining out on the internet fame, I've never been more relevant.

If you could ask them to get upset with a few more of my posts it would do wonders for the auld confidence...

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267463#Comment_120267463

So not relevant in terms of being selected as a 10 then. He’s had as many starts for Munster in Europe as he has at 10 for Ireland. So European experience doesn’t seem to be that important in an Irish context.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267627#Comment_120267627

The continued winning part is the bit that hurts them the most. They continuously disagree with the selection process but keep being proved wrong by results on the pitch.

It is why they talk about nebulus things like 'fan disconnect' and hurting the team 'long term'. Gives them talking points that they can never be called out on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267622#Comment_120267622

So the fact he's actually been Leinster's second choice 7 for the past three seasons doesn't make him Leinster's second choice 7?

You're seriously straining credibility here.

In the past three seasons for Leinster, across 72 games, Josh van der Flier has started 35 of those, Scott Penny 29 (plus another 3 starts at 8), Will Connors 4 and Dan Leavy 4.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267640#Comment_120267640

Leinster are good because guys like Scott Penny rack up lots of minutes for them and Scott Penny is good. Maybe that's a hard concept for you to grasp here, but I don't know what to tell you.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267708#Comment_120267708

Yea, anyone who thinks leinster are good because of scott penny… the homerism has taken over.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267640#Comment_120267640

Oh, and btw - here are your stats for you:

this season: Scott Penny has played 10 games, starting 8. He's carried for 240m across 72 carries (3.3m a carry, which incidentally is a better yards per carry average than Gavin Coombes, Caelan Doris, Will Connors, Jack O'Donoghue, Peter O'Mahony, Alex Kendellen, Nick Timoney and Duane Vermeulen). He's had 114 tackles, and won 6 turnovers, and scored two tries.

Hodnett, granted, has had an obviously good season, especially carrying the ball, playing 13 games, starting 9. Carried for 339m across 74 carries (4.6m per carry). He's also scored 2 tries, won 5 turnovers and made 154 tackles.

Hardly a picture though all in of one guy being demonstrably better than the other.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267705#Comment_120267705

And Connors has been injured for the majority of that time. Again, that seems pretty relevant.

For example Henshaw has been injured for spells this season. By a similar logic, that would make Ngatai 1st choice 12. He’s not.

If you had to pick between Penny and Connors, who is more likely to get a cap vs a Tier 1 Nation next, or get in the 23 for a European Final or Semi Final, who would you go for? Give me Connors all day.

I’m curious if other Leinster fans think I’m “seriously straining credibility” here?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267722#Comment_120267722

Yeah, it's homerism (wtf that means).

You've a guy who's started 40% of Leinster's games over the past 3 seasons at openside flanker, for a team who are renowned for probably having the quickest ruck ball in Europe, but you think that guy isn't a good player, or isn't a big part of that success?

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267487#Comment_120267487

It's obvious that the other provinces have to get better. Simple. Connacht is like Leinster west. Half of the squad are from Leinster. They have **** coaching. They have what looks like a fairly strong squad and still they struggle. Similar with Ulster who since Farrelk came in have had E.O.S, Lowry, Burns, Timoney, Balacoune all capped by Farrell. Tom Stewart is in the squad. What more can Farrell do? The only semi regular is O'Toole Munster are getting there and will have several included soon enough.

If supporters from these provinces lose interest, so be it. Let's get more of a spread of the provinces so we can be #4 or whatever in the rankings.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267781#Comment_120267781

Yeah, because you're comparing a situation between a guy who's had one specific injury this season, but who played for Leinster as recently as late October, with Connors situation where he's made 4 starts in 3 whole seasons. That's pretty much the definition of a disingenuous comparison.

We're not talking about a month or so here. He's started 6 games less than Josh van der Flier in 3 whole seasons in Leinster's 7 shirt, and the guy is still 23 years of age.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267810#Comment_120267810

I’ll repeat the question.

If you had to pick between Penny and Connors, who is more likely to get a cap vs a Tier 1 Nation next, or get in the 23 for a European Final or Semi Final, who would you go for? Give me Connors all day.

Any thoughts?

foxyladyxx

Having watched both Penny play on multiple occasions and Hodnett just a couple of times , I would have thought that Hodnettt had the higher ceiling.

This is all much ado about nothing. Neither player will be involved in the 6 nations especially since it is a World Cup year and Farrell is trying to build up his world cup squad.

Any other year we would probably be seeing other squad members on the fringes getting their chance particularly against Italy.

So Hodnett, perhaps Penny and am sure Coombes can all look forward to being part of the Ireland set up in 2024 and the following world cup squad.

I mean really? Whereis the sense in the bickering to and fro when it makes damn all bit of difference?

And I am a Leinster fan,

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267589#Comment_120267589

Why would you? The other provinces have lots of imports. They don't seem to mind.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267781#Comment_120267781

Somewhat - you really aren't being consistent here at all.

The logic you used of Hodnett being seen as a potential starting 7 for Munster earlier, ignoring that so much of his playing time was helped by other players being absent, you now are choosing not to use for Penny here. You're trying to have it both ways.

Also, earlier you trying to liken the experience of Hodnett and Penny to the decision between Coombes and Conan doesn't help you either.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267829#Comment_120267829

Connors for me. Connors over Hodnett too.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267783#Comment_120267783

Yes, playing near a 100% of their lowest leverage games does not make him a big reason behind their success.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267829#Comment_120267829

I have absolutely no idea tbh. It's extremely hard to call, especially given Connors' inability to stay fit for a protracted period of time. It's a complete hypothetical. Penny is the guy who's currently in the Irish squad (and was called in the week of the Fiji game too), Will Connors hasn't started two consecutive games in 3 years.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267848#Comment_120267848

Not quite the point I had in mind.

I get wanting your regional side to be people from your region. I don't need people from my region to be part of my national team.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267886#Comment_120267886

You're embarrassing yourself at this stage with this nonsense.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267829#Comment_120267829

I'd pick Connors every day. Saying that if Hodnett was a Leinster player he'd probably be 4th choice 7.

Pennys competing with Josh and now has Connors back while Hodnett is competing with JOD(who wouldn't get near a Leinster European squad).

I think Hodnetts playing really well lately and so is Penny. As said the Irish coaches were probably more impressed with Penny during the EI tour which swung it for him.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267911#Comment_120267911

But if it's "extremely hard to call" then how it is possibly "seriously straining credibility" to suggest Connors is Leinster's 2nd choice 7?

Two Leinster fans so far agree with me (and cheers for chiming in lads). Are they seriously straining credibility too?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267513#Comment_120267513

It was "dogsh1t" and that was in reference to the Ospreys on Friday night. I think that was a fair appraisal tbh.

Penny has played plenty of rubbish URC opponents but plenty of quality too.

But I don't care about Penny tbh. He won't see a green jersey for quite a while and nor would Hodnett, so I'm just baffled by the reaction over three days in Carton House. Who cares?

And I hate seeing fans turning against their own national team for what I think are unfounded reasons. That's why I'm overly invested in this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267997#Comment_120267997

No, you're confusing two things here.

Leinster fans might have a view that Connors at his best is the better player. I probably share that view.

So in your little future hypothetical example, he may well win out.

But it's a verifiable fact that Scott Penny has been Leinster's second choice 7 for the past 2 years. Will Connors' injury problems are indisputably a big part of that perhaps, but it's still true.

It makes literally no difference anyway to the actual decision around whether or not to call up John Hodnett or Scott Penny. The way people are trying to portray this (including those two losers on Twitter) is that Hodnett is some Lions-calibre player being overlooked for an academy level, when nothing supports that.

Back in my very first post on this topic this evening I said I think Hodnett has been playing really well, and if I was making this call, I'd have called Hodnett up over Penny (at this moment in time). If I'd been making that decision at any other point in the past few seasons I'd have taken Penny over Hodnett.

But, once again, it's not some scandalous shocking decision that Penny got the call over Hodnett, and the suggestions of Leinster bias in the decision are ridiculous.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268092#Comment_120268092

Mod: You were warned earlier in the thread.

"including those two losers on Twitter" is very much against the general "don't be a dick" boards rule.

Threadbanned for 2 weeks.