Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Louis Friend

theVersatile wrote: »

This is an amazing string of sentences. The lack of self awareness is astonishing. Either that or you're a troll - and I'm wary of the fact you joined on Jan 1st.

What has joining on January 1st got to do with anything?

I’m entitled to my view on who wears the Number 10 jersey for my national team, a side I’ve followed all over the world.

I’m an IRFU Patron and I’ve played the game professionally.

But, oh no, let’s start throwing the ‘t word’ at anyone with a view that’s at odds with yours.

mfceiling

Louis Friend wrote: »

I’m an IRFU Patron and I’ve played the game professionally.

Turning out for your school team when you were 13 doesn't make you a professional.

theVersatile

Louis Friend wrote: »

What has joining on January 1st got to do with anything?

I’m entitled to my view on who wears the Number 10 jersey for my national team, a side I’ve followed all over the world.

I’m an IRFU Patron and I’ve played the game professionally.

But, oh no, let’s start throwing the ‘t word’ at anyone with a view that’s at odds with yours.

Apologies for offending, but you really shouldn't be surprised that people aren't taking you seriously when you refuse to admit to using hyperbole while in the same breath saying Burns is only a decent AIL 10. And I wasn't questioning that you weren't a fan - just that you've absolutely no idea what you're on about.

Nice to have an ex pro on here though - and while that carries a certain weight of credibility behind it I think I'll trust Dan MacFarland and Andy Farrell on this one. (unless you think Ross Byrne and every other fit fly half in the country is only AIL standard.)

Rugby4568

TRC10 wrote: »

This argument is spectacularly stupid because there are dozens of brilliant players who dont/never got a look in for England. The current European player of the year cant get a look in for England. Last seasons Heineken Cup winning out half and captain hasnt been capped by England. So I suppose by your logic they "aren't good enough".

You can probably make a strong argument that Burns isnt international quality. But if that's the case then Sexton isnt international quality either because theres nothing ive seen from sexton in the last 2 years to suggest hes any better.

No matter what out half we field, we will suffer. So why not suffer short term with the 21 year old who has bags of potential, rather than suffer on with the 36 year old who is only getting worse and has gone of injured in 6 of the 9 games hes played this season.

Who cares about the pecking order at a province who has a completely different agenda to Ireland. Players have literally played for ireland before they've played for their province. Because we're not winning anything with any of our out halfs this season.

Burns wasn’t even good enough to get into the Gloucester starting team that’s why he moved to Ulster. He’s an England reject and came to Ireland looking for game time. Simple as. There are plenty of out halves in the country that are better than Burns.
But I agree with everything else you say.

Louis Friend

I just don’t think he should be on the field for a side with our aspirations.

In this cycle, we’re trying to win the Championship and get to at least a World Cup Semi-Final.

I just don’t see a role for Billy Burns in that. He seems like a decent fella and I feel sorry for him after yesterday, but he’s just not up to it.

Rugby4568

The reason we have this problem with Sexton playing for Ireland is arguably Leo Cullen’s fault because he has Sexton down as the starting out half for Europe when he should be giving that game time to young 21 year old Harry Byrne so we can develop him into an international out half sooner rather than later. Because it’s quite clear that Andy Farrell picks the team on who starts European Cup games for their province. Harry Byrne should be thrown in their for European Cup games to give him experience for he’ll be ready for international rugby sooner rather than later

Lost Ormond

Rugby4568 wrote: »

The reason we have this problem with Sexton playing for Ireland is arguably Leo Cullen’s fault because he has Sexton down as the starting out half for Europe when he should be giving that game time to young 21 year old Harry Byrne so we can develop him into an international out half sooner rather than later.

Leo Cullens job is to win trophies and do as well as he can for Leinster while also developing players. If Leo Cullen saw other players as better than Sexton theyd play the bigger games. But he doesnt as theyre not yet. Harry Byrne has to get past his brother and he isnt.
You are obsessing over a 21 year old who has shown he is ok in some pro14 games. Steady on. relax about this. There is a lot more issues at play for ireland than this

UAEguy2020

The reason we have this problem with Sexton is we never gave another 10 a chance to impress or get decent minutes and put all our chips on a 36 being fit just because he was great 3 years ago. This is a problem of our own making as now we will have no choice but to play another 10.

Brewster

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Burns wasn’t even good enough to get into the Gloucester starting team that’s why he moved to Ulster. He’s an England reject and came to Ireland looking for game time. Simple as. There are plenty of out halves in the country that are better than Burns.
But I agree with everything else you say.

That’s just factually wrong. He played over 100 games for Gloucester and was first choice. They didn’t want to let him go. Stop rewriting history. By all means debate his ability as a player, but don’t try to pass off rubbish as fact and not be challenged on them.

Last time- Gloucester didn’t want to let Burns go. Burns was made a much better financial offer and decided to accept it and move to Belfast.

Clear?

theVersatile

Louis Friend wrote: »

I just don’t think he should be on the field for a side with our aspirations.

In this cycle, we’re trying to win the Championship and get to at least a World Cup Semi-Final.

I just don’t see a role for Billy Burns in that. He seems like a decent fella and I feel sorry for him after yesterday, but he’s just not up to it.

Now that is a much fairer comment.

If there was any chance of Burns being a long term successor to Sexton, I'd be inclined to agree nearly - but he's only a second choice fill in while young players develop and the old second choice recovers.

If he was our sub outhalf behind Sexton going into the WC and his performances continued to be of last weekends standard (I believe he should get the rest of the championship games on the bench to try and rectify himself with a good half hour against Italy), then I'd be very worried alright, especially with Sextons body. But a lot can happen in two years - it wouldn't be a far cry to say Bilbo won't be involved in the set up by then - he'll be third choice if Carbery comes back fit and firing and then it only takes a surge from Carty or Byrne to put themselves as the reserve 10.

But yeah, if he was being hailed as anything more than a competent reserve ten I'd be saying something. I think we actually agree on our long term opinion of him - just differ in current ratings slightly.

molloyjh

Rugby4568 wrote: »

The reason we have this problem with Sexton playing for Ireland is arguably Leo Cullen’s fault because he has Sexton down as the starting out half for Europe when he should be giving that game time to young 21 year old Harry Byrne so we can develop him into an international out half sooner rather than later. Because it’s quite clear that Andy Farrell picks the team on who starts European Cup games for their province. Harry Byrne should be thrown in their for European Cup games to give him experience for he’ll be ready for international rugby sooner rather than later

Oh dear God stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. This absolute garbage rabbit hole we are going down is insane. Harry Byrne is a talented prospect, but thats all he is right now. A prospect. This shiny new thing syndrome is embarrassing. He has had it easy up until now and has still had recent games were he was unconvincing such as against a weak Cardiff side in the RDS. Just because he is young and has potential doesnt mean he must immediately be fast tracked into important games. Thats just not how reality works.

Christ this place is a cesspit during international windows.

Oh and Harry Byrne was due to get a start in Europe vs Northampton btw. So its not like he's being overlooked either. But the sheer desperation to throw out everything else to let the new shiny object have a go is bizarre. Why is it so hard for so many people to have anything approaching perspective!?

Rugby4568

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Leo Cullens job is to win trophies and do as well as he can for Leinster while also developing players. If Leo Cullen saw other players as better than Sexton theyd play the bigger games. But he doesnt as theyre not yet. Harry Byrne has to get past his brother and he isnt.
You are obsessing over a 21 year old who has shown he is ok in some pro14 games. Steady on. relax about this. There is a lot more issues at play for ireland than this

But Harry Byrne is better than Sexton and I’m not just saying that I genuinely think he’s a better player. Sexton can’t even last a full 80 minutes in a pro14 or an international game. Sexton is too fragile and I know I sound like a broken record saying this but we need to bring younger players into the team because they genuinely are better than the older players. Sexton can’t do what Harry Byrne does in a pro14 game so what makes you think Harry Byrne can’t do better than Sexton at European/ International level? That argument saying “he needs experience” is a load of rubbish. If you’re good enough you’re good enough and Harry Byrne is good enough already. Sexton isn’t the player he used to be. France have the youngest team in the Six Nations and they’re the best.

Rugby4568

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh dear God stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. This absolute garbage rabbit hole we are going down is insane. Harry Byrne is a talented prospect, but thats all he is right now. A prospect. This shiny new thing syndrome is embarrassing. He has had it easy up until now and has still had recent games were he was unconvincing such as against a weak Cardiff side in the RDS. Just because he is young and has potential doesnt mean he must immediately be fast tracked into important games. Thats just not how reality works.

Christ this place is a cesspit during international windows.

Oh and Harry Byrne was due to get a start in Europe vs Northampton btw. So its not like he's being overlooked either. But the sheer desperation to throw out everything else to let the new shiny object have a go is bizarre. Why is it so hard for so many people to have anything approaching perspective!?

Yeah fair enough fair point. Sorry for my rant there just had to get it out of my system but you do have a fair point he was meant to play that European cup game until he got injured. I’m just mad at the situation Ireland are in right now.

Must love hardship

Rugby4568 wrote: »

The reason we have this problem with Sexton playing for Ireland is arguably Leo Cullen’s fault because he has Sexton down as the starting out half for Europe when he should be giving that game time to young 21 year old Harry Byrne so we can develop him into an international out half sooner rather than later. Because it’s quite clear that Andy Farrell picks the team on who starts European Cup games for their province. Harry Byrne should be thrown in their for European Cup games to give him experience for he’ll be ready for international rugby sooner rather than later

Ross byrne has started 4 of the last 5 champions cup games for leinster.. Harry was due to start one but pulled up in the warmup.

Leinster won all 4 by the way.

On a side note luke mcgrath has started 5 of the last 6. champions Cup games for leinster.. I dont see why Park jumped past him to bench for ireland at a higher standard.

Rugby4568

Must love hardship wrote: »

Ross byrne has started 4 of the last 5 champions cup games for leinster.. Harry was due to start one but pulled up in the warmup.

Leinster won all 4 by the way.

On a side note luke mcgrath has started 5 of the last 6. champions Cup games for leinster.. I dont see why Park jumped past him to bench for ireland at a higher standard.

True I don’t get that situation with Park either

molloyjh

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Yeah fair enough fair point. Sorry for my rant there just had to get it out of my system but you do have a fair point he was meant to play that European cup game until he got injured. I’m just mad at the situation Ireland are in right now.

There really is no need to be. We've done all we can. We developed Sexton to be one of the best in the world. Hes not at that level any more but he is still a bloody good 10. This idea that Harry Byrne is better than him is based on absolutely nothing at all because their game time cannot be compared in any way so neither can their performances.

After Sexton we developed Ian McKinley until a freak accident forced him into (temporary) retirement and ended any chance of him becoming a pro. We developed Jackson who became a very good 10 but then messed it up for himself. Then we developed Carbery who can't stay fit. Now we're developing Harry Byrne, Ben Healy and a few others. The guys we've lost that could have made this level, we lost due to no fault of the IRFU or the provinces. It was crap luck from a rugby perspective. But as a small island we're actually doing pretty well at developing good 10s. They're a rare breed in any country, much less one with such a small playing population. Bad luck has left us in a bit of a limbo for now that we just have to see out. It happens. As I said elsewhere, we just have to suck that up. There is no quick fix here.

There are only 4 provinces in Ireland for places but there's definitely a paternalistic attitude to blooding 10's.

It's not very effective whatever is happening and young players don't get the experience / chance to get through more quickly.

Sexton didn't get a start for Ireland until he was 24 and could have taken longer if Contempomi didn't get injured to give him a European run

Ntamack is younger than Harry Byrne and has 18 caps for France

bigger player pool in France blah blah blah. The other 2 tens in the French international squad are pretty much the same age.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

There really is no need to be. We've done all we can. We developed Sexton to be one of the best in the world. Hes not at that level any more but he is still a bloody good 10. This idea that Harry Byrne is better than him is based on absolutely nothing at all because their game time cannot be compared in any way so neither can their performances.

After Sexton we developed Ian McKinley until a freak accident forced him into (temporary) retirement and ended any chance of him becoming a pro. We developed Jackson who became a very good 10 but then messed it up for himself. Then we developed Carbery who can't stay fit. Now we're developing Harry Byrne, Ben Healy and a few others. The guys we've lost that could have made this level, we lost due to no fault of the IRFU or the provinces. It was crap luck from a rugby perspective. But as a small island we're actually doing pretty well at developing good 10s. They're a rare breed in any country, much less one with such a small playing population. Bad luck has left us in a bit of a limbo for now that we just have to see out. It happens. As I said elsewhere, we just have to suck that up. There is no quick fix here.

The problem is we’ve given up trying to develop 10s, someone like Ross Byrne could be a very good test player if he was given a proper chance but instead we throw him into the fire against England in a rudderless Irish team then act surprised when he doesn’t step up...

I don’t buy this argument about our size and population as it’s nothing more than an excuse, the the simple question is are we making the most of the resources at our disposal, yes or no? The answer is clearly no, when you have a smaller pool you need to be more resourceful and Ireland are anything but. When we get the most out of our system we can then start looking for logistical excuses but until then it’s just that, an excuse.

Rugby4568

Brewster wrote: »

That’s just factually wrong. He played over 100 games for Gloucester and was first choice. They didn’t want to let him go. Stop rewriting history. By all means debate his ability as a player, but don’t try to pass off rubbish as fact and not be challenged on them.

Last time- Gloucester didn’t want to let Burns go. Burns was made a much better financial offer and decided to accept it and move to Belfast.

Clear?

He left because Danny Cipriani became first choice 10

thomond2006

So what we're saying is Leinster should release James Ryan so that young lads like Charlie Ryan can play.

I completely agree.

TRC10

thomond2006 wrote: »

So what we're saying is Leinster should release James Ryan so that young lads like Charlie Ryan can play.

I completely agree.

No

Dubinusa

Sometimes I think the centrally contracted lads are given more latitude to fcuk up. I imagine the union wouldn't want the highest earners plodding around the pro14 during the international windows. And to me, that's a problem. The obvious case would be Murray. He was awful and still was selected!

irishbucsfan

Rugby4568 wrote: »

He left because Danny Cipriani became first choice 10

He left before Cipriani became first choice 10

However the signing of Cirpriani definitely made it easier for Gloucester to let him go. I’d say they definitely regret that now. I’d say they regretted it within weeks, after the golden wrists incident

mfceiling

Rugby4568 wrote: »

France have the youngest team in the Six Nations and they’re the best.

There's the argument that blows every bit of logic or opinion out the window.

Younger = Better

Youngest team = Best team

sydthebeat

Must love hardship wrote: »

On a side note luke mcgrath has started 5 of the last 6. champions Cup games for leinster.. I dont see why Park jumped past him to bench for ireland at a higher standard.

You wouldn't, unless you are part of the ireland coaching set up.

If you were, then you'd know

sydthebeat

Italy have the youngest team in the competition, and they're the worst.....

Podge_irl

glasso wrote: »

Sexton didn't get a start for Ireland until he was 24 and could have taken longer if Contempomi didn't get injured to give him a European run

Contepomi getting injured gave Sexton about 1.5 games headstart on being the Leinster starting 10.

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The problem is we’ve given up trying to develop 10s, someone like Ross Byrne could be a very good test player if he was given a proper chance but instead we throw him into the fire against England in a rudderless Irish team then act surprised when he doesn’t step up...

Ross Byrne will never be a very good test player. He simply does not have the requisite physical ability.

Sanjuro

mfceiling wrote: »

There's the argument that blows every bit of logic or opinion out the window.

Younger = Better

Youngest team = Best team

My four year old plays rugby tots. They're a scrappy bunch. But give them a week or two in Abbotstown and I reckon they'd give England a good run for their money.

Rigor Mortis

glasso wrote: »

There are only 4 provinces in Ireland for places but there's definitely a paternalistic attitude to blooding 10's.

Ntamack is younger than Harry Byrne and has 18 caps for France

bigger player pool in France blah blah blah. The other 2 tens in the French international squad are pretty much the same age.

He has 57 caps for Toulouse. The bigger number of clubs in France is also an issue. A player like that can get time to play at a good level early on, particularly with the policy of mixing up home and away teams.

This is where a partnership with London Irish could help in terms of another outlet for Irish players on a controlled basis. In some positions, we might do well to have another club where guys could get time.

molloyjh

Carbery was 21 when he got his first Irish cap. Ross Byrne was 23 (and wasn't a stand out like Carbery). Paddy Jackson was 21. Ian Madigan was 22 (almost 23) when he got his first cap.

Folks, you simply are not entitled to your own facts here. We have blooded a number of out halves at 21/22 over the last decade. Two of whom would be in the squad right now if it wasnt for circumstances beyond the IRFUs control. Is there any chance we could have a reasonable, rationale and factual debate on this? Any chance at all?