Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Interested Observer

Brewster wrote: »

That’s just factually wrong. He played over 100 games for Gloucester and was first choice. They didn’t want to let him go. Stop rewriting history. By all means debate his ability as a player, but don’t try to pass off rubbish as fact and not be challenged on them.

Last time- Gloucester didn’t want to let Burns go. Burns was made a much better financial offer and decided to accept it and move to Belfast.

Clear?

You've strangely left out the bit where Gloucester signed Danny Cipriani from this condescending ****e. You reckon it was to sit on the bench behind Billy Burns?




Anyway. POM's hearing is today. Won't shed a tear at a good long ban.

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

He has 57 caps for Toulouse. The bigger number of clubs in France is also an issue. A player like that can get time to play at a good level early on, particularly with the policy of mixing up home and away teams.

This is where a partnership with London Irish could help in terms of another outlet for Irish players on a controlled basis. In some positions, we might do well to have another club where guys could get time.

That's what I meant by 4 teams.

I agree that more creative solutions should be explored particularly at positions like ten.

If N'tamack was playing in Ireland he could never have come through so early and world be probably still waiting for his first European game

18 international caps, not a chance.

Told to wait his turn like a good boy but wasting his talent.

TomsOnTheRoof

Interested Observer wrote: »

You've strangely left out the bit where Gloucester signed Danny Cipriani from this condescending ****e. You reckon it was to sit on the bench behind Billy Burns?




Anyway. POM's hearing is today. Won't shed a tear at a good long ban.

Lovely attitude.

Niallof9

Billy Burns isn't good enough.

But yeah its a fair point, we've lost two quality outhalves and our 10, one of the best 10's in the game is in his last year or two.

For me its not the main issue here. We've reaped what we've sown with Murray and Sexton. Its the same throughout our history. Sure we had Best fall apart at the last World Cup. Whatever reason we do it that way (personally its an obvious one) and it backfires on us and the players invovled.

But do you back Billy if Sexton is gone?

If either RB or BB start and it goes pear shaped next weekend, you'd have to fear for their careers in Ireland, could be the ending of at least one of them.

I really think this is going to be one of our worst six nations in years. Yeah they did ok last weekend, but anytime we've had rotten luck or unjust decisions early on (jonny williams) we've not fared well in gaining any further luck or form. I think the waste of opportunity in November will come back to haunt us.

Wouldn't be the worst outcome, imo the whole thing needs a full reboot. Coaches and all. I hope we don't see POM again this tournament. Knowing the IRFU though and the hype train, the ink is setting on his central contract that will take him through to playing at the World Cup aged 34. People will still be clambering to name him captain then as well.

I kind of wouldn't mind Scotland doing something this tournament. Rugby needs a shakeup. Imo Irish rugby needs a wakeup.

Rigor Mortis

molloyjh wrote: »

Carbery was 21 when he got his first Irish cap. Ross Byrne was 23 (and wasn't a stand out like Carbery). Paddy Jackson was 21. Ian Madigan was 22 (almost 23) when he got his first cap.

Folks, you simply are not entitled to your own facts here. We have blooded a number of out halves at 21/22 over the last decade. Two of whom would be in the squad right now if it wasnt for circumstances beyond the IRFUs control. Is there any chance we could have a reasonable, rationale and factual debate on this? Any chance at all?

One was outside of the IRFU'S control, one, I believe, was the direct result of the same issue of not bringing players along and pressure to get a guy back on the pitch.

dub_skav

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s as of yet undecided.

Byrne had a chance and didn’t take it.
Burns had a chance and didn’t take it.
JJ and Madigan are to old at this stage to even try.
Maybe give the other Byrne a go, or bring back in the first one.
Carthy wouldn’t be the worst call.
Healy is the outside shot because of age and experience.


The problem is that none of those players look to be able to put pressure on Sexton the way that pressure was put on ROG.

Look at what Beirne has done, his performances mean he has to be included next weekend, and he is a player many said wasnt up to the level.
.

Beirne wasn't up to the level, until he was.
He had a number of chances and was not putting pressure on Ryan, Henderson or POM.
Last weekend he put his hand up, but it took (a lot of) time.

Based on that, I'm not sure what your argument is

Niallof9

JJ Hanrahan is 28, is that too old? I mean its the same age as jack Carty who is hardly a centurion. He's just another victim of terrible player management, advice and player/contract hoarding and positional ****ing around, as well as perhaps just not being as good as his youth career.

It just goes to show what a ****ing waste of time, November was. We could have gave a few lads their go. Frawley, Harry, hell even JJ. Or just started Billy in every game. Instead we're tinkering mid tournament, cause shock horror, our aging outhalf is injured (not a criticism, just not surprising). Nobody will have remembered the nations cup, but the lack of balls and bravery might be recalled when we'll be inevitably having some sort of discussion around another disastrous WC, wondering where it all went wrong. And it will be easy to pinpoint.

Exactly as many of us predicted. It would make you despair sometimes.

If Sexton is out, and RB or BB don't step up ala Jackson back then, they are goosed imo. Its set them an impossible task really.

Personally i would pick Jack Carty. For some reason, above people like Farrell, Easterbuy and others he was scapegoated. A typical weird Irish rugby reaction, completely devoid of sense and reason. He, along with JJ (shock horror) is the form outhalf. But of course picking the form player would make too much sense. Irish rugby does it different, ten steps ahead, smartest guys in the room. No wonder teams like Wales hate us with all our bluster.

UAEguy2020

Podge_irl wrote: »

Contepomi getting injured gave Sexton about 1.5 games headstart on being the Leinster starting 10.



Ross Byrne will never be a very good test player. He simply does not have the requisite physical ability.

And there’s the problem, we’ve made a decision on a player before he’s ever got a proper chance. I’ve seen enough from him at Champions Cup level to know that he can be a good test level.

Requisite physical ability...you really are MASSIVELY overthinking this.

CMcsporty

Im surprised that France are only marginal favourites for the game.

Considering suspension, injuries, 7 day turnaround & the pressure now on Burns and Murray's alarming performance - Ireland are not in good shape.

France are never great away from home. But with the added day, no injuries, a game under their belt i think Ireland could loose by at least 10 points.

Niallof9

Ross Byrne will never be good enough. Its clear as day. He's a solid pro with some very good attributes. I mean its inevitable that he will be passed out by his brother, who ticks all the same boxes but is quicker, and has far more about him. I mean that will suck for HB, but backing HB out of some sense of loyalty will be detrimental.

molloyjh

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

One was outside of the IRFU'S control, one, I believe, was the direct result of the same issue of not bringing players along and pressure to get a guy back on the pitch.

Oh great, another medical expert capable of accurately second guessing medical professionals without anything other than a biased bit of hindsight which conveniently ignores the fact he came back for Munster after the RWC too.

And who else exactly was there in 2019 to bring in anyway? We'd looked at Ross Byrne and he wasnt up to it. We'd looked at Jack Carty and he showed some promise. So we included him in the squad. There was nobody else was there? I'm not sure either point in this stands up to much scrutiny I'm afraid.

phily2002

sydthebeat wrote: »

You wouldn't, unless you are part of the ireland coaching set up.

If you were, then you'd know

It's bizzare, McGrath has been class this year as has Cooney. Murray was very poor the weekend. Gave them possession for the first try with a pass behind Hendo, gave them a free play on the second try with a high tackle and gave them 3 points with his blocking. Also his passing wasn't great and often stumped players runs.
Anyone else played like that they'd be slated yet people are saying he played well and controlled the game...
JGP is grand but not the second best 9 in the country. At least he can create something when needed and nearly got Ringrose in except for Tipric producing a great chase back and tackle.

UAEguy2020

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ross Byrne will never be good enough. Its clear as day. He's a solid pro with some very good attributes. I mean its inevitable that he will be passed out by his brother, who ticks all the same boxes but is quicker, and has far more about him. I mean that will suck for HB, but backing HB out of some sense of loyalty will be detrimental.

I wonder how many players we said that about, until they got their chance to show it.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh great, another medical expert capable of accurately second guessing medical professionals without anything other than a biased bit of hindsight which conveniently ignores the fact he came back for Munster after the RWC too.

And who else exactly was there in 2019 to bring in anyway? We'd looked at Ross Byrne and he wasnt up to it. We'd looked at Jack Carty and he showed some promise. So we included him in the squad. There was nobody else was there? I'm not sure either point in this stands up to much scrutiny I'm afraid.

Who would look up to it in a match where a team conceded nearly 60 points?

Podge_irl

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And there’s the problem, we’ve made a decision on a player before he’s ever got a proper chance. I’ve seen enough from him at Champions Cup level to know that he can be a good test level.

Requisite physical ability...you really are MASSIVELY overthinking this.

I've seen Ross Byrne play dozens of times. I don't need to see him play at international level more to know that he does not have the pace or ability to attack the line and you can't afford a deep playing 10 at international level unless you have an overpowering pack, which we do not.

theVersatile

Ross has had far more chances than Burns. I don't think he has a future as an international 10. I'd love to see more of he him in the centre in blue - that experiment went surprisingly well. Could be the making of him.

UAEguy2020

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've seen Ross Byrne play dozens of times. I don't need to see him play at international level more to know that he does not have the pace or ability to attack the line and you can't afford a deep playing 10 at international level unless you have an overpowering pack, which we do not.

Seems to have good enough all round game at 10 to get Leinster through games at the highest level, if pretty confident based on that that he can do a job for Ireland also.

I don’t know if you watched the England matches but everything Byrne was being criticized for in terms of positioning Sexton was more or less doing the same in Twickenham...it always amazes me the hypocrisy there is when judging our 10s.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

You've strangely left out the bit where Gloucester signed Danny Cipriani from this condescending ****e. You reckon it was to sit on the bench behind Billy Burns?

I’d doubt they signed him to sit on the bench. I can’t imagine Cipriani was cheap.

But he was also getting on and was a known loose cannon. You’d have to think either they knew Ulster were after Burns and would be too attractive a proposition, or they had a longer term plan for Burns to be the apprentice there and eventually emerge. Burns was a strong prospect there, he’d recently enough been the starting 10 for a JWC winning side.

Given how it turned out you’d think they’d love to turn back time and reverse it, but possibly they never had a choice there.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Who would look up to it in a match where a team conceded nearly 60 points?

What about the game in the Autumn where he started? He was incredibly deep that day also.

I feel for him, both your Test starts in Twickenham is as hard as it gets, but he just seems to play too deep and too sideways sometimes, nor have the top end pace.

OldRio

Can I just ask one simple question. No provincial bias. No bs. How do we address the issue of a number 10 and a number 9 in time for the next World Cup?

Ideas?

UAEguy2020

theVersatile wrote: »

Ross has had far more chances than Burns. I don't think he has a future as an international 10. I'd love to see more of he him in the centre in blue - that experiment went surprisingly well. Could be the making of him.

That’s isn’t saying much as neither have got any real chances to show what they can do. 2 starts in over 2 years both against England in Twickenham in such a rudderless Irish team isn’t giving someone a chance...

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've seen Ross Byrne play dozens of times. I don't need to see him play at international level more to know that he does not have the pace or ability to attack the line and you can't afford a deep playing 10 at international level unless you have an overpowering pack, which we do not.

This.

We're still seeing this incredibly bizarre and myopic viewpoint that the only way to tell if a player is good enough is to have him play numerous Test games to find out. As though seeing performances at provincial level gives you nothing or that training with the squad tells the coaches nothing either.

If any professional sports team in any sport anywhere in the world doesn't know how to gauge capability without putting players into the top level numerous times, then they are simply masquerading as professional teams.

I've no idea what is so hard to grasp with the concept that judgements can be made on players by coaches without them playing Test rugby. But the attitude of "sure play them and let us all see so that we know" is basically asking for failures to occur (and occur multiple times) that are avoidable and should be avoided.

Ross Byrne is not Test standard. He's a bloody good 10 at provincial level, but he is too slow, too one dimensional with ball in hand and too passive at certain elements of the game to make the step up. And I say that as a guy who likes Ross Byrne as a Leinster player.

theVersatile

Admittedly I haven't been on boards.uk, but I don't see many Scottish fans giving out about how Cameron Redpath is an English reject...

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I don’t know if you watched the England matches but everything Byrne was being criticized for in terms of positioning Sexton was more or less doing the same in Twickenham...it always amazes me the hypocrisy there is when judging our 10s.

You've said this before and it's just not true. Sexton brings it notably flatter.

I think it's a lot closer defensively. Byrne put in one brilliant shot on Jonathan Joseph when defending inside Ireland's 5m line. He's much closer to Sexton in that regard.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

What about the game in the Autumn where he started? He was incredibly deep that day also.

I feel for him, both your Test starts in Twickenham is as hard as it gets, but he just seems to play too deep and too sideways sometimes, nor have the top end pace.

As was Sexton in Twickenham in the 6N when he was faced with the exact same situation... he brought to the line in Paris and against Wales when he came off the bench but again that doesn’t fit the narrative.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

You've said this before and it's just not true. Sexton brings it notably flatter.

Not in that match.

Also, if Sexton is such an improvement why were things why was the 6N performance a carbon copy of the autumn nations cup performance?

Podge_irl

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Seems to have good enough all round game at 10 to get Leinster through games at the highest level, if pretty confident based on that that he can do a job for Ireland also.

I don’t know if you watched the England matches but everything Byrne was being criticized for in terms of positioning Sexton was more or less doing the same in Twickenham...it always amazes me the hypocrisy there is when judging our 10s.

The Leinster forward pack is better than pretty much every other one they face. The same is not true at international level.

Sexton may well have done that in one game. That is irrelevant. Byrne is incapable of doing any different. He has, to his credit, clearly worked on it as he has tried carrying closer to the line over the last year but he simply can not do it.

theVersatile

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

That’s isn’t saying much as neither have got any real chances to show what they can do. 2 starts in over 2 years both against England in Twickenham in such a rudderless Irish team isn’t giving someone a chance...

If we're talking about a guy who wants to be our next starting 10 for the next WC, potentially usurping Sexton, I don't think there's two better games to prove yourself than two games against the previous WC finalists. Certainly a better opportunity than fifteen minutes at fourteen men against Wales.

I'd say something as well if he has just average - but he was dreadful. I wouldn't be opposed to giving him another go, but if he doesn't show anything past this Summer we should be looking elsewhere.

UAEguy2020

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Leinster forward pack is better than pretty much every other one they face. The same is not true at international level.

Sexton may well have done that in one game. That is irrelevant. Byrne is incapable of doing any different. He has, to his credit, clearly worked on it as he has tried carrying closer to the line over the last year but he simply can not do it.

Not in Europe... In France they tend to get parity and in those games Byrne looked more than up to it, this is the weakest excuse out there.

Here’s a question genius, how do you get better at test level? A. Sitting in the stands or B. Playing matches?

When I said earlier about not being resourceful this is what I meant...

molloyjh

OldRio wrote: »

Can I just ask one simple question. No provincial bias. No bs. How do we address the issue of a number 10 and a number 9 in time for the next World Cup?

Ideas?

Exactly as we are. We moved 1 young 10 to Munster to get game time. He's still young enough to be in play for the RWC. We have Harry Byrne developing at Leinster who was unlucky to miss out on his first European start in Dec. He's obviously being looked at very seriously by both Leinster and Ireland (he's been training with Ireland a couple of times now). He just needs to show he can make that step up. Things could happen every bit as quickly for him as they did for Joey once he does that.

At Munster we also have Ben Healy and Jack Crawley, the former just making his break through and the latter whom I've heard some very positive stuff about. One of them may need to move potentially but they are both young guys who could have a future in the next year or two.

If we had a summer tour this season I'd like to think at least 1 of Healy and Harry Byrne would be involved. Although that may not happen a this stage. And that will exasperate things somewhat, but we're going about this the right way as it is. If Jackson had behaved and Joey been able to stay fit, this simlly wouldnt be a conversation. But we're a small country with limited depth and 10 is a position thats hard to develop talent in anyway. People are banging on about Ntamack here, but how many top class 10s have France had over the last 10 years? And they have 10 more clubs to develop them. Its a bloody hard position to develop.