Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Rugby4568

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve played dozens of matches with no doctor present and it doesn’t get much more amateur than the games I played in.

You probably play at a low standard then because all private rugby schools have team doctors so do all the clubs in AIL and most of the clubs in prem1 u20s.

Rugby4568

OldRio wrote: »

We need a number 10 and 9 to start the World Cup with numerous caps and meaningful game time. (not off the bench)
Now is the time, 2023 is coming up fast. Coaches need to invest in younger players, whoever they are.

There’s over 6500 languages and you chose to speak nothing but facts.

mfceiling

Slightly off topic but I would agree with the idea of "resting" a player for 3 weeks after failing a HIA regardless of them making their "mark's" afterwards.
I just think the game is getting so physical now that if you get a bad bang on the head there would be absolutely no harm in a complete and utter non contact environment for 3 weeks.
I genuinely worry about the health of players after they finish their careers.

The Inbetween is mine

cantwbr1 wrote: »

Does Conans call up suggest CJ to blindside and Conan straight in to 8

I really hope not

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure, we could but as things stand we don't. If things change then the discussion around Byrne might change - which is grand as he is not going anywhere.

As things stand it could absolutely where we have the biggest comparative advantage.

I’d be all for Byrne starting against France with JGP/Burns on the bench to come on after 60. Where else are we confident of being able to beat this French team if it isn’t up front?

UAEguy2020

I hope if Ryan recovers we simply move Beirne out to the blindside and play Henderson in the 2nd row, that’s a pack that can do serious damage against anyone.

salmocab

Rugby4568 wrote: »

You probably play at a low standard then because all private rugby schools have team doctors so do all the clubs in AIL and most of the clubs in prem1 u20s.

So your assertion that all amateur games have doctors present was wrong?

Buer

cantwbr1 wrote: »

Does Conans call up suggest CJ to blindside and Conan straight in to 8

I would think it's very much being considered. You don't call him up unless you're thinking you might need him. It will depend on the outcome of Ryan's return to play protocol and POM's hearing this afternoon. If both impact selection negatively (which is quite likely), we're suddenly light in the back row (which makes the Coombes call curious).

It's a straight call between Ruddock to 6 or Stander moving and Conan coming in.

Whilst Ruddock has been playing excellently, I've never been comfortable with his level of agility and dynamism for test rugby overall. I think himself and Stander in the back row isn't a particularly mobile one and makes us quite one dimensional. A lot of heavy traffic carries and battering into people which can be very effective but you need someone who can profit from those carries also.

I'm far from certain it will happen, but they haven't called Conan in unless he's in contention.

Rugby4568

salmocab wrote: »

So your assertion that all amateur games have doctors present was wrong?

Depends what amateur level you’re playing at. The games I’ve played in we’ve had one of the best consultants in the country as our team doctor. Just depends what level you’re playing at but any decent level has team has a team doctor.

Rugby4568

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I hope if Ryan recovers we simply move Beirne out to the blindside and play Henderson in the 2nd row, that’s a pack that can do serious damage against anyone.

JR isn’t playing this weekend unfortunately from what I’ve heard.

aloooof

Buer wrote: »

It's a straight call between Ruddock to 6 or Stander moving and Conan coming in.

Beirne to 6 might be another option, with Henderson and Ryan in the row? Largely dependent on the outcome with James Ryan obviously tho.

salmocab

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Depends what amateur level you’re playing at. The games I’ve played in we’ve had one of the best consultants in the country as our team doctor. Just depends what level you’re playing at but any decent level has team has a team doctor.

A simple I was wrong would have sufficed

stellenbosch

Rugby4568 wrote: »

There is doctors at every amateur game. Every schools rugby match there’s doctors. Same with Ail and u20s. The experts don’t think different I know a consultant surgeon who said that 7 day return to protocol rule is rubbish he said it should be 3 weeks for every level. The amateurs get the exact same treatment in terms of how quick they get it. If you fail a HIA and then fail another HIA a week later it’s only gonna make your symptoms a lot worse. Look at Caelan Doris now

Just to be very clear-there is NO HIA during matches at amateur level-schools or AIL.

aloooof

Rugby4568 wrote: »

There is doctors at every amateur game.

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Depends what amateur level you’re playing at.

So, there are doctors at every amateur game depending on what amateur level you’re playing at?

Some logic. Ireland win every game, depending on what games you watch.

Interested Observer

stellenbosch wrote: »

Just to be very clear-there is NO HIA during matches at amateur level-schools or AIL.

Are you telling me, and I can't quite believe this, but are you telling me Rugby4568 is telling porkies?

Lost Ormond

stellenbosch wrote: »

Just to be very clear-there is NO HIA during matches at amateur level-schools or AIL.

And never has and wont be any time soon.
You see amateur refs be it at u13s or j2 or AIL and if a coach/medic/whoever is trying to do a form of test on a player with suspected concussion and ref says no theyre off.

Vast majority of teams in the country do not have a team doc at all/most of their games

molloyjh

OldRio wrote: »

We need a number 10 and 9 to start the World Cup with numerous caps and meaningful game time. (not off the bench)
Now is the time, 2023 is coming up fast. Coaches need to invest in younger players, whoever they are.

We can't click our fingers and magically make guys appear or be further along their in their development that they really are. Putting guys into games they are not ready for can have an adverse impact on their development too.

Let's maybe look at this a different way. Lets say Paddy Jackson behaved himself and Joey Carery was fit. We would then have Sexton, Carbery and Jackson starting for their provinces. Behind them you would have Carty at Connacht, Healy at Munster and the Byrne brothers at Leinster. We'd be absolutely be gushing over our depth at 10 given we have everything from experienced elder statesmen to guys in their prime to young lads breaking through. We'd be absolutely laughing.

But take out that middle tier of Jackson and Carbery and suddenly things look very different. The point being that we are developing 10s to a good standard and fairly consistently. We've just hit a patch here and now where the guys who should be taking charge of the 10 shirt ahead of the RWC simply aren't available. So we're left with guys on either end of the scale. Its crap luck, but we just have to suck that up.

As I said earlier, we've had no problem bringing through 21/22 year olds at 10 before when they were good enough and ready. We'll have no problem doing so again when they are good and ready. But there is no way that we can accelerate the process to any great degree. Thats just not how player development works. If we have Harry Byrne for example on the bench for the 6Ns next year and taking over from Sexton over the course of 2022 and we get Joey back and Healy or Crowley gets a run out too then we should be fine.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Beirne to 6 might be another option, with Henderson and Ryan in the row? Largely dependent on the outcome with James Ryan obviously tho.

It's a very clear option but my thinking is based on the scenario I set out at the start of my post i.e. Ryan and POM are both ruled out.

If Ryan is available, I think Beirne to 6 makes the most sense. I also think that they wouldn't be calling up Conan if they reckoned Ryan was looking good though.

Rugby4568

stellenbosch wrote: »

Just to be very clear-there is NO HIA during matches at amateur level-schools or AIL.

Not true. If there is a suspicion of concussion you get taken off and the doctor gives you a HIA.

Podge_irl

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Not true. If there is a suspicion of concussion you get taken off and the doctor gives you a HIA.

It's not a HIA cause you are never going back on the pitch.

Must love hardship

I think going into the new few weeks we are in a good place if Ryan is fit.

Good competition for places if all fit and healthy.
Scrum and lineout looked back to its best. Bar a few defensive reads and discipline it was a good performance v Wales considering we we down to 14 men for 65 plus minutes and it was the first game in 2 months.

We have one of the best packs in the tournament if you include the back ups currentlly called up.

Healy - Kilcoyne
Herring - Kelleher
Porter - Furlong
Ryan- Henderson Baird
Bierne Dillane
Ruddock - coombes (baird bierne)
Vdf connors
Conan Stander

The centres are strong.
2 clear stand outs and 3 solid if not spectacular back ups.

I think we have found a gem in a full back and id rotate the wingers.. I doubt France will kick too much so id bring larmour in and conway/ daly need game time... earls and Lowe have their moments but we need rotation here.

I think the lightening rod for a lot of debate here are the half backs...

my own opinion is Murray will and should start the French game but Casey should be back up for this week. There is no clear no. 2 so don't see benefit of park subbing 2 weeks in a row.
Give the best performance back up a start v Italy potentially and review it for Scotland. Id also hope they review the back up scrum halves after the French game and swap the back up that performs poorest..

Outhalf. I think byrne should be back up this week. Similar to the scrum half there is no clear no. 2 Let him get 20 minutes and start either him or burns or An other v Italy based on how they perform in the 2 games. With the other benching. Hopefully Byrne performs better than burns.

Ifnhe does id also start Byrne v scotland with johnny coming off the bench and maybe swap that for the English game With Johnny starting and Byrne finishing off the game. If Johnny is still fit.

Meanwhile let Harry play his pro 14 games and give Johnny a few weeks off after the 6 nations to rest and let Harry and Ross fight it out for leinsters no. 10 Jersey.

stellenbosch

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are you telling me, and I can't quite believe this, but are you telling me Rugby4568 is telling porkies?

I am telling you 100pc that there is no process for a formal HIA assessement at ANY Amateur game. Contact the irfu if you would like to verify. The amateur game operates on the basis of education of all involved ie players coaches and referees and the "recognise and remove" principle. But you will never or should never see someone saying they are doing a HIA at an amateur game where he/she goes off and comes back on. It simply does not happen.

Rugby4568

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not a HIA cause you are never going back on the pitch.

I know you’re not allowed back on the pitch but if your team has a doctor you still get a HIA. The only difference is that you’re not allowed back on the pitch.

Must love hardship

Buer wrote: »

It's a very clear option but my thinking is based on the scenario I set out at the start of my post i.e. Ryan and POM are both ruled out.

If Ryan is available, I think Beirne to 6 makes the most sense. I also think that they wouldn't be calling up Conan if they reckoned Ryan was looking good though.

I think when Doris got injured Conan might have had a slight injury so they called up Coombes...

They need cover at 8 so it makes sense to have Conan there. They have 2 lads for 7 and with the potential for lads in 2nd row to cover 6 they have plenty of options there now to.. 8 was the weakest spot with no natural 8 in the panel

stellenbosch

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I know you’re not allowed back on the pitch but if your team has a doctor you still get a HIA. The only difference is that you’re not allowed back on the pitch.

It is not a HIA.Period

Rugby4568

stellenbosch wrote: »

It is not a HIA.Period

I literally got one before so I think I’d know. The doctor gave me a head injury assessment and I was fine. Only difference was that I wasn’t allowed back on the pitch.

Brewster

Buer wrote: »

It's a very clear option but my thinking is based on the scenario I set out at the start of my post i.e. Ryan and POM are both ruled out.

If Ryan is available, I think Beirne to 6 makes the most sense. I also think that they wouldn't be calling up Conan if they reckoned Ryan was looking good though.

Beirne, Hendo and Ryan are three great players. If we could keep them all fit at the same time, it’s hard to see who gets left out. I think they all need to play and Beirne at 6 would be the call. Beirne has all the attributes to be a fantastic six, the only downside being that he is unlikely to play at 6 for Munster.

A bit like the Stockdale situation, with Keenan emerging is there less necessity for Stockdale to play FB for Ulster? Can he go back to the wing now? Clearly Irish situation influenced the decision to play him at FB for Ulster.

Jump_In_Jack

Must love hardship wrote: »

I think when Doris got injured Conan might have had a slight injury so they called up Coombes...

They need cover at 8 so it makes sense to have Conan there. They have 2 lads for 7 and with the potential for back row to cover 6 they have plenty of options there now to.. 8 was the weakest spot with no natural 8 in the panel

Coombes is an 8.

He plays 6 when Stander plays 8 ahead of him, but his primary position is 8.

dublin49

I am amazed at the lack of enthusiam for Carty as the next in line for Irls no10.He is experienced,has the skill set and is playing really well.
He definitely has not received a fair chance which he really deserves.To see Healy and young Byrne discussed ahead of him is to me very strange and ill judged.Give Carty a few games and judge him then,he has earned it more than all the other current contenders bar R Byrne who lacks Carty's all round skill set.

irishbucsfan

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I literally got one before so I think I’d know. The doctor gave me a head injury assessment and I was fine. Only difference was that I wasn’t allowed back on the pitch.

There is no HIA in amateur rugby

More info here if you’d like to read up on the guide to concussion in amateur rugby: https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/irfu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/30172053/IRFU-Concussion-Brochure-2018.pdf