Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

stellenbosch

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I literally got one before so I think I’d know. The doctor gave me a head injury assessment and I was fine. Only difference was that I wasn’t allowed back on the pitch.

You got checked by a doctor fine. He told you not to go back on fine. That is not a HIA as would happen during a professional match as set out by World Rugby and administered by a doctored specifically trained in HIA administration. What tests did he do on you?

thomond2006

Carty has gotten "a few games": https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/?PlayGuid=JC833818

Consistency is his biggest issue and it's a glaring one.

molloyjh

dublin49 wrote: »

I am amazed at the lack of enthusiam for Carty as the next in line for Irls no10.He is experienced,has the skill set and is playing really well.
He definitely has not received a fair chance which he really deserves.To see Healy and young Byrne discussed ahead of him is to me very strange and ill judged.Give Carty a few games and judge him then,he has earned it more than all the other current contenders bar R Byrne who lacks Carty's all round skill set.

Carty is woefully inconsistent. For me he's like Finn Russell with less of an upside. Will do some great things and some terrible things. You just can't afford that at Test level. He has had opportunities in training and matches. They've seen plenty of him and not selected him. Theres good reason for that.

Jump_In_Jack

The most likely scenario is Conan had a niggle and was going to miss the first week of training anyway, so a week for Coombes to take part in training was good use of the available training spot.
Conan is a better option in my opinion at the moment, he is in the prime of his ability now, and Coombes will get more chances if he continues his trajectory.

Ruddock, Conan and Stander can cover 6 and 8 and VdF and Connors cover 7.

Baird at a push could cover 6, but is probably retained to train as a second row with Dillane, Henderson and Beirne.

Brewster

molloyjh wrote: »

Carty is woefully inconsistent. For me he's like Finn Russell with less of an upside. Will do some great things and some terrible things. You just can't afford that at Test level. He has had opportunities in training and matches. They've seen plenty of him and not selected him. Theres good reason for that.

A poor man’s Finn Russell. Probably very true, if a tad harsh.... !

Rugby4568

stellenbosch wrote: »

You got checked by a doctor fine. He told you not to go back on fine. That is not a HIA as would happen during a professional match as set out by World Rugby and administered by a doctored specifically trained in HIA administration. What tests did he do on you?

This doctor has been the team doctor for a lot of professional rugby games in the past. He’s given the same treatment to our team as he would to the professional rugby players. Only difference is that we’re not allowed back on the pitch.

CMcsporty

dublin49 wrote: »

I am amazed at the lack of enthusiam for Carty as the next in line for Irls no10.He is experienced,has the skill set and is playing really well.
He definitely has not received a fair chance which he really deserves.To see Healy and young Byrne discussed ahead of him is to me very strange and ill judged.Give Carty a few games and judge him then,he has earned it more than all the other current contenders bar R Byrne who lacks Carty's all round skill set.

There is a allot of enthusiasm from a few.
And more enthusiasm to knock him because he isn't been selected.

But he the form 10 in the country to my eyes.
& has been harshly treated by Farrell since the WC.

The Welsh game would have been the ideal game for Carty's kicking skills from hand.

oisinog

Rugby4568 wrote: »

This doctor has been the team doctor for a lot of professional rugby games in the past. He’s given the same treatment to our team as he would to the professional rugby players. Only difference is that we’re not allowed back on the pitch.

So therefore you had an assement at the side of a pitch by a Doctor.

its_phil

molloyjh wrote: »

Carty is woefully inconsistent. For me he's like Finn Russell with less of an upside. Will do some great things and some terrible things. You just can't afford that at Test level. He has had opportunities in training and matches. They've seen plenty of him and not selected him. Theres good reason for that.

The problem with this is that Sexton has been consistently bad at international level since the 2019 Six Nations other than the performance against Scotland at RWC. He has let the team down in most of our big games and doesn’t get near enough flak for 100 cap player as I see for novices like Burns, Byrne and Carty get for mistakes. The kick into a sea of legs in the first half against Wales was jaw dropping bad.

How people think he should be awarded a two year contract is amazing to me.

dub_skav

oisinog wrote: »

So therefore you had an assement at the side of a pitch by a Doctor.

Using his own personal expertise and experience, rather than anything formalised for amateur rugby

AbusesToilets

If Conan is coming in, he should start at 8, with Ruddock at 6, and Connors or VdF at 7. Try and use some mobility and handling to beat the French, rather than brute force.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If Conan is coming in, he should start at 8, with Ruddock at 6, and Connors or VdF at 7. Try and use some mobility and handling to beat the French, rather than brute force.

You can't say we should use mobility and then advocate for Ruddock in the back row. He's an absolute work horse but he's less mobile than Stander (who in no way deserves to be dropped).

OldRio

molloyjh wrote: »

We can't click our fingers and magically make guys appear or be further along their in their development that they really are. Putting guys into games they are not ready for can have an adverse impact on their development too.

Let's maybe look at this a different way. Lets say Paddy Jackson behaved himself and Joey Carery was fit. We would then have Sexton, Carbery and Jackson starting for their provinces. Behind them you would have Carty at Connacht, Healy at Munster and the Byrne brothers at Leinster. We'd be absolutely be gushing over our depth at 10 given we have everything from experienced elder statesmen to guys in their prime to young lads breaking through. We'd be absolutely laughing.

But take out that middle tier of Jackson and Carbery and suddenly things look very different. The point being that we are developing 10s to a good standard and fairly consistently. We've just hit a patch here and now where the guys who should be taking charge of the 10 shirt ahead of the RWC simply aren't available. So we're left with guys on either end of the scale. Its crap luck, but we just have to suck that up.

As I said earlier, we've had no problem bringing through 21/22 year olds at 10 before when they were good enough and ready. We'll have no problem doing so again when they are good and ready. But there is no way that we can accelerate the process to any great degree. Thats just not how player development works. If we have Harry Byrne for example on the bench for the 6Ns next year and taking over from Sexton over the course of 2022 and we get Joey back and Healy or Crowley gets a run out too then we should be fine.

We lost Jackson a long time ago. Carberys injury was over 12 months ago. The Conservative approach of not bringing on young players is why we are now in this situation.
'Harry Byrne on the bench for 6Ns next year' to take over from Sexton for the Autumn internationals would give him what 3/4 starts going into the year of the World Cup.
It's not enough for any player.

Anyway IMHO we need to blood younger players earlier but obviously you don't agree and yet here we are.

Wegians89

As a Connacht fan who watches them every week, cartys biggest issue is his place kicking. Murray and Ringrose are decent in that area and could take over that role if Carty came in.

It would also allow Carty to concentrate on the game management side of things without being distracted by the pressures of place kicking.

Cartys kicking from hand, game management and defence have all been fairly consistent for the last couple of years. Add in that he can pull something out of nothing I’m attack too. I do believe he is too much of a free spirit and would go off script too often for the current Irish system

Rugby4568

Wegians89 wrote: »

As a Connacht fan who watches them every week, cartys biggest issue is his place kicking. Murray and Ringrose are decent in that area and could take over that role if Carty came in.

It would also allow Carty to concentrate on the game management side of things without being distracted by the pressures of place kicking.

Cartys kicking from hand, game management and defence have all been fairly consistent for the last couple of years

I’ve never seen Garry Ringrose miss a place kick. He’s a fantastic kicker

molloyjh

OldRio wrote: »

We lost Jackson a long time ago. Carberys injury was over 12 months ago. The Conservative approach of not bringing on young players is why we are now in this situation.
'Harry Byrne on the bench for 6Ns next year' to take over from Sexton for the Autumn internationals would give him what 3/4 starts going into the year of the World Cup.
It's not enough for any player.

Anyway IMHO we need to blood younger players earlier but obviously you don't agree and yet here we are.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of post that lacks any and all perspective. We cannot magic players out of thin air. I will say that again in case there is any doubt. We cannot magic players out of thin air.

I've gone over this already. 10 is a difficult position to develop talent in. Who are England third and forth choice 10? Who are Frances? Players don't grow on trees. You seem to want to believe that if there's a spot open there will be a player to fill it regardless of any and all other relevant information. Your entire premise is based in fantasy though. It isnt realistic.

We have 4 teams to develop talent. We should by rights have 3 Test level 10s available to us. We only have 1 and he's at the end of his career. But s*** happens. We have others there coming through but we don't have a time machine to make them ready when they are not. Simply giving them game time is not a time machine. And exposure too early can be harmful, not beneficial.

Its maddening reading people talking about giving young lads a go when absolutely no thought whatsoever has gone into that position. Its just "young lad, play game, be better". Realism be damned.

LuckyLloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of post that lacks any and all perspective. We cannot magic players out of thin air. I will say that again in case there is any doubt. We cannot magic players out of thin air.

I've gone over this already. 10 is a difficult position to develop talent in. Who are England third and forth choice 10? Who are Frances? Players don't grow on trees. You seem to want to believe that if there's a spot open there will be a player to fill it regardless of any and all other relevant information. Your entire premise is based in fantasy though. It isnt realistic.

We have 4 teams to develop talent. We should by rights have 3 Test level 10s available to us. We only have 1 and he's at the end of his career. But s*** happens. We have others there coming through but we don't have a time machine to make them ready when they are not. Simply giving them game time is not a time machine. And exposure too early can be harmful, not beneficial.

Its maddening reading people talking about giving young lads a go when absolutely no thought whatsoever has gone into that position. Its just "young lad, play game, be better". Realism be damned.

You are locked into a prison of thinking it matters whether Carty / Byrne offer us the best chance to win a game in this six nations or not, when it doesn't. You play them now and not Sexton because Sexton won't be there in 2023 and the other lads will be. I would question numerous starts from last weekend, but Earls / Healy / Sexton are completely indefensible. And this is nothing on them - they mostly did fine - but it's time to move on.

Lost Ormond

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You are locked into a prison of thinking it matters whether Carty / Byrne offer us the best chance to win a game in this six nations or not, when it doesn't. You play them now and not Sexton because Sexton won't be there in 2023 and the other lads will be. I would question numerous starts from last weekend, but Earls / Healy / Sexton are completely indefensible. And this is nothing on them - they mostly did fine - but it's time to move on.

Nobody has said Earls/Healy/Sexton are completely indefensible.
If we had players who were better than Sexton right now theyd be playing. You cant get completely caught up in what will happen for 2023.

sydthebeat

Ntamack, Jailibert, Carbonell, belleau
All under 24

Ford, farrell, Smith, Umaga.
Two established 10s and two under 22.

All with extensive Heineken cup experience.

Podge_irl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You are locked into a prison of thinking it matters whether Carty / Byrne offer us the best chance to win a game in this six nations or not, when it doesn't. You play them now and not Sexton because Sexton won't be there in 2023 and the other lads will be. I would question numerous starts from last weekend, but Earls / Healy / Sexton are completely indefensible. And this is nothing on them - they mostly did fine - but it's time to move on.

Carty and Byrne won't be starting in 2023 either.

LuckyLloyd

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Nobody has said Earls/Healy/Sexton are completely indefensible.
If we had players who were better than Sexton right now theyd be playing. You cant get completely caught up in what will happen for 2023.

You certainly can and should when you aren't good enough to win anything in 2021. You are just passing up limited opportunities to get in the best shape possible for the most important competition. The fact Sexton is better right now doesn't matter. He isn't good enough to win a championship anymore and he won't be there at the next world cup.

It's a small time mentality really.

LuckyLloyd

Podge_irl wrote: »

Carty and Byrne won't be starting in 2023 either.

You hope not. But one of them may have to be the second or third choice. And end up playing. Either way, they might / might not. Sexton definitely won't.

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

It's a very clear option but my thinking is based on the scenario I set out at the start of my post i.e. Ryan and POM are both ruled out.

If Ryan is available, I think Beirne to 6 makes the most sense. I also think that they wouldn't be calling up Conan if they reckoned Ryan was looking good though.

Conan is called up because of O’Mahony’s inevitable suspension and Doris likely not being available.

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

I am amazed at the lack of enthusiam for Carty as the next in line for Irls no10.He is experienced,has the skill set and is playing really well.
He definitely has not received a fair chance which he really deserves.To see Healy and young Byrne discussed ahead of him is to me very strange and ill judged.Give Carty a few games and judge him then,he has earned it more than all the other current contenders bar R Byrne who lacks Carty's all round skill set.

Carty has gotten the same treatment as every Irish 10 that isn’t Sexton by the Irish media and fans.

Sexton bad game - gloss over it
Anyone else - hang them out to dry.

aloooof

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You are locked into a prison of thinking it matters whether Carty / Byrne offer us the best chance to win a game in this six nations or not, when it doesn't. You play them now and not Sexton because Sexton won't be there in 2023 and the other lads will be. I would question numerous starts from last weekend, but Earls / Healy / Sexton are completely indefensible. And this is nothing on them - they mostly did fine - but it's time to move on.

This is exactly the type of post I dislike on here, tbh.

There are legit reasons someone might want Sexton to start, Ross Byrne / Billy Burns or even Harry Byrne to start etc. But to argue it to the point that you claim you de facto know better than Andy Farrell is just hubris.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of post that lacks any and all perspective. We cannot magic players out of thin air. I will say that again in case there is any doubt. We cannot magic players out of thin air.

I've gone over this already. 10 is a difficult position to develop talent in. Who are England third and forth choice 10? Who are Frances? Players don't grow on trees. You seem to want to believe that if there's a spot open there will be a player to fill it regardless of any and all other relevant information. Your entire premise is based in fantasy though. It isnt realistic.

We have 4 teams to develop talent. We should by rights have 3 Test level 10s available to us. We only have 1 and he's at the end of his career. But s*** happens. We have others there coming through but we don't have a time machine to make them ready when they are not. Simply giving them game time is not a time machine. And exposure too early can be harmful, not beneficial.

Its maddening reading people talking about giving young lads a go when absolutely no thought whatsoever has gone into that position. Its just "young lad, play game, be better". Realism be damned.

You only need 4 teams as the teams tend to rotate a lot, it’s not a valid excuse when you have the set ups the Irish provinces have, maybe it would be worry in Scotland or Wales but not in the Irish provinces.

Here’s a question, how do you reach test level as a 10? A. playing games or B. Sit in the stands ?

I remember all this being said about Marmion until we had no choice but to play him v England and it turned out he was up to it all along, how very resourceful of us...NOT.

Interested Observer

IT saying Sexton expected to be available (and Ryan) so he's going to start if that's the case.

its_phil

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ntamack, Jailibert, Carbonell, belleau
All under 24

Ford, farrell, Smith, Umaga.
Two established 10s and two under 22.

All with extensive Heineken cup experience.

Sexton, Byrne, Frawley, and Byrne all at the one province. Wouldn’t be allowed in any other union controlled country.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Here’s a question, how do you reach test level as a 10? A. playing games or B. Sit in the stands ?

This is just absurdly reductive. And playing games guarantees you nothing, either. Italy arguably haven't had a test level 10 since Dominguez, for example.

ionadnapokot

Interested Observer wrote: »

IT saying Sexton expected to be available (and Ryan) so he's going to start if that's the case.

I would think this is to keep France guessing.
Particularly on Sexton.
He cant play considering his past. Or maybe that should be - He Shouldn't play.....