Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692797#Comment_120692797

one of his big, momentum changing moments

Euphemism of the century! 😂

EDIT: also to add to that list - Murray's box kicking.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692695#Comment_120692695

I hadn't seen the quote but I think you've misrepresented it somewhat.

He acknowledges that the maul was largely unsuccessful - and they didn't get the ball back mostly because Leinster disrupted it. The maul taking Leinster's legs and that being the winning of the game is simply something I will disagree with him on and nothing will change my mind on that.

La Rochelle got plenty of return from their maul, was a big weapon for them.

We facilitated it with two sliced clearances and three kick outs on the full. Nothing handed the 1 point win more to LAR than those 5, uncharacteristic mistakes. Our pack got tired out by our backs having a collectively poor enough day and it's a big blot in Byrne's copybook that he didn't take control of the match.

The biggest missing player wasn't POM, Beirne or Hansen - it was Sexton.

Byrne and Crowley will likely duke it out for the next half season / season and Crowley will start to pull away from there (provided both aren't overtaken by someone else). I'd have no issue either being back up in the RWC, I would have an issue with Sexton not being available.

As for ROG, he plays the game - says what he thinks he needs to. I'd imagine he was full of praise for his forward coach and former team mate Donnchadh Ryan and it's good management to pass around the praise rather than claim it.

In my view Leinster lost that game more than La Rochelle won it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692842#Comment_120692842

I really don't think I have misrepresented it tbh. Here's another quote I've previously made on it.

Rog, a coach known for his honesty, has named-checked the maul as what won them the game. More down to how much it sapped Leinster forwards rathe than the advances they made on the maul themselves.

The 2nd part is pretty much exactly what ROG is saying.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692869#Comment_120692869

Tbf, I think Aloooof's post had an implicit caveat that Sexton was injured for Leinster in the final, and would therefore be injured in the hypothetical setting where a similar maul-heavy strategy were used against Ireland. In that case, we would have a lot more options than Leinster did.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692869#Comment_120692869

When you suggest it's a big blot on Byrnes copy book for not taking control of the game. I think more of the blame falls on JGP's shoulders.

He completely ignored Byrnes attempts to work the ball in field for the drop goal. Had poor kicks and he facilitated a back line that made a total of 9 passes outside him all by hisnout half.

He can be very good when his team is on the front foot and supplying him with quick ball.

But he can be absolutely headless under pressure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692912#Comment_120692912

If Ireland and or Leinster simply clear their lines effectively then a 'maul heavy' strategy gets you nowhere either way.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692915#Comment_120692915

Not sure about that. Clearing your lines is a massive help. But if you then don't compete and let their maul come back at you repeatedly, you're pretty much flogging your forwards and/or risking penalties, just in a different part of the pitch.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692937#Comment_120692937

If a team wants to waste their time mauling inside their own half good for them. From 72 minutes until the whistle Leinster were fully on the attack (as exhausted as they were from LAR's 'Maul heavy' strategy) and but for a failure to take a drop goal and Al'alatoa getting himself sent off the match could have gone the other way and no one would be talking about the LAR Maul.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692946#Comment_120692946

If a team wants to waste their time mauling inside their own half good for them. 

The territory (and possession) stats don't suggest it was in their own half tho.

There was another stat I heard in the wake of the game where from the 30th minute to the 72nd minute, Leinster had single-number rucks in the LAR half. (It might have been 2). That's as dominant as I've ever heard.

And if Leinster do clear the lines, given the position some were taken from, Leinster still find themselves well in their own half or even close to their 22. That pressure builds.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692956#Comment_120692956

The territory (and possession) stats don't suggest it was in their own half tho.

I think you've missed the context. It wasn't in their own half, because Leinster didn't clear their lines.

And if Leinster do clear the lines, given the position some were taken from, Leinster still find themselves well in their own half or even close to their 22. That pressure builds.

Nonsense. Leinster gifted massive territory repeatedly through poor kicking, and gifted possession to go with it by kicking out on the full.

If people want to believe that had no impact in a one point game that's up to them.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692946#Comment_120692946

By your own admission, LaR "got plenty of return from their maul" so mauling it form closer to half-way (even a decent clearance will leave opposition around half-way) wouldn't have been a waste of time at all.

And you saw no signs of fatigue in the way Leinster attacked in that period of time?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692968#Comment_120692968

I think you've missed the context. It wasn't in their own half, because Leinster didn't clear their lines.

My point is that, some of those kicks were deep in Leinster territory, so even if Leinster do clear their lines, the LAR put in is still in the Leinster half. I think that's objectively true.

Nonsense. Leinster gifted massive territory repeatedly through poor kicking, and gifted possession to go with it by kicking out on the full.

And LAR gifted Leinster a 3-try head start. That works both ways.

If people want to believe that had no impact in a one point game that's up to them.

I never said it had no impact. My point is I think the maul had the biggest impact.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692979#Comment_120692979

Yes - LAR got plenty of return from mauling inside or around the Leinster 22. Are you saying that mauling from halfway or deeper would have rendered the same result?

I would imagine both teams were fatigued, Leinster's pack looked to have more legs in the closing 10 minutes, despite two players (JGP, Lowe) costing them massive territory and possession for much of the previous 40 minutes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692980#Comment_120692980

I can only take from this that you think territory is relatively meaningless in rugby.

And La Rochelle didn't gift Leinster anything, Leinster produced three well worked tries, it doesn't work both ways at all? The kicking failures were entirely on Leinster and all were taken under relatively little pressure.

maul had the biggest impact.

Don't particularly agree, but you are still completely ignoring the fact that LAR's maul on five occasions were as a result of territory gained through uncharacteristic mistakes by Leinster. I don't know whether you are just choosing to ignore this, but I think I've been clear enough so will leave it there.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692994#Comment_120692994

I can only take from this that you think territory is relatively meaningless in rugby.

Nope.

...so will leave it there.

Yep.

Ardillaun

On the notion that a few decisions by the backs were the primary problem, Leinster need to draw the right lessons here. They’ve been beaten up front by the same team twice. The closeness of the score flattered them the second time round.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692267#Comment_120692267

What areas do you think Byrne is better? And what areas do you think Crowley is? How how does the relate to how Ireland play overall? Or the balance of the bench selection?

Someone earlier said, if we were chasing the game, they'd want Crowley coming off the bench. Absolutely. If you need a spark of magic, or someone to streak through a gap in a tired defence, then that ain't Ross Byrne, it's Crowley.

But what if we want the out-half to close out the game? Or to come on after 10 minutes when Sexton gets concussed again? What if we want someone to keep the shape of the team, get the forwards into the positions they need to be in, and keep the backline moving? Then maybe Byrne is the guy you want. Crowley has certainly shown encouraging signs he can do this, but 'signs' are all they are.

I honestly don't think Farrell will pick his bench for versatility, he's shown no inclination to do so up to now. I think he'll pick the 22 that he thinks is the second-best out-half. Crowley's ability to play 12 doesn't matter if Bundee Aki is wearing 23, as he almost certainly will be.

@[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693076#Comment_120693076

People keep talking the same tired narrative, without actually assessing what happened.

What @[Deleted User] is saying is absolutely the case - there were multiple times in the second half where the Leinster forwards stifled the LAR maul, won jackal turnovers on the deck, or stopped their big ball carriers dead in their tracks (one incredible tackle from Sheehan on Botia is particularly memorable here).

The difference in this game to a typical game was bad decisions and bad execution by the backs (and half backs in particular) in failing to exit properly. Had Leinster not botched 5 big exit attempts in the second half (or if they'd been rewarded with a penalty instead of just winning the turnover when Sheehan, Henshaw, JGP, Ngatai and Doris all got on the ball in that crucial window) then they would have been able to get some crucial territory and alleviate pressure on the pack.

By consistently botching the exits, they just handed territory and possession right back to LAR.

Outside of the scrappy enough try LAR scored in the second half, they created very very little, and it's hard to think of many gilt edged chances they botched or anything like that. They huffed and puffed a lot in the Leinster half, but really didn't create anything.

There's kind of bit of revisionism being written here about a Leinster side that while they finished the season in a disappointing way, are still unquestionably the second best team in Europe, and who have been right in the mix at the death in the last two European finals, despite playing relatively poorly in both games.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693076#Comment_120693076

Leinster's exits were an absolutely massive issue and the losing of the game. Obviously from a LAR point of view their maul won them the game, but it was Leinster's terrible kicks giving them the maul opportunities. ROG isn't going to say LAR won because Leinster can't kick the ball

phog

Interesting commentary in some posts around Byrne, some saying he is absolutely the right guy to play outhalf if Sexton is not available and more laying the blame on him for Leinster's exit strategy in their loss to LAR in the ERC final.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693712#Comment_120693712

really?

the general consensus is the problems were the exits of JGP and Lowe mainly. Byrnes kicking game was quite good in that game.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693456#Comment_120693456

I dont know about Aki 23. I know farrell is a fan of a centre in the 23 jersey especially if ringrose is 13.

But i think Crowley 22 and JOB 23 covers the whole backline.

Byrne 22 and Aki 23 requires a major reshuffle if a winger/ full back goes down.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693712#Comment_120693712

Can you quote these posts laying the blame on Byrne for the exit strategy? I didn’t see any. I saw plenty blaming JGP and Lowe though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693712#Comment_120693712

I don't think anyone has said he's absolutely the right guy to play outhalf if Sexton isn't available either.

What people have rightly said is that there is a lot of recency bias in people's analysis of Byrne & Crowley's respective seasons. Byrne had a really good and solid season. He steered Leinster to some really big wins, including blowing away Toulouse in a European Cup semi final. He was poor in the final IMO, and is a classic example of a guy with a relatively high floor but low ceiling.

Jack Crowley by contrast, was poor enough at 10 for decent chunks of the season, and then finished it (granted when the games mattered more) in a good fashion, with two or three very good displays in big games.

Definitely the form guide is trending towards Crowley, and from my own perspective, I feel like Crowley is the more talented player who looks like he'll be in or around the Irish 10 shirt for the foreseeable future.

But, it's definitely not outrageous to suggest there isn't much between them right now. They've gotten there in different ways, and Crowley is the younger guy with more room to grow and improve, but if Byrne is still in the 22 shirt (assuming Sexton is fit) or the 10 shirt (assuming he isn't) come the RWC, then it will likely be more about what happens in camp over the next few months than what has happened in the season just gone by.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693735#Comment_120693735

Farrell picks his bench for impact, as opposed to Schmidt who picked his bench to cover for injuries. And I'd 150% be in the Farrell camp on that. Aki has far more capacity to change a game with 20 minutes to go than Jimmy O'Brien.

How many games under Joe did the no.23 (guys like Larmour, McFadden, Felix Jones) come on and actually make an impact? Very few. Fitzgerald v Argentina is the only one I can really think of. Now how many games under Farrell (in a much smaller sample size) have we seen Aki or Henshaw come on with 20 minutes to go and really add something to the team? I can think of loads. England away last year. 1st and 2nd tests v NZ, Australia last year. Wales and France this year. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

And if a wing gets injured, Ringrose just moves out there and Aki comes into the centre. It's hardly a major reshuffle.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693761#Comment_120693761

It's a pretty fluid situation though. Crowley and Carberry were ahead of Byrne back in November.

Then Byrne got back ahead of both for the 6 nations and got an extended run with Leinster.

Crowley has grown as a player as the year has gone on and looks to have great potential.

Byrne has improved too and is an excellent kicker, very durable and dependable but unfortunately has his limitations.

Hopefully both get through camp injury free and have a great battle for the irish Jersey.. either 10 or 23.

Sextons injury profile suggests if we get to the knockout stages of the world cup both Byrne and crowley will have a massive part to play.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693753#Comment_120693753

just above my post is the most recent one

The difference in this game to a typical game was bad decisions and bad execution by the backs (and half backs in particular) 

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120694031#Comment_120694031

I don't see the words exit strategy there anywhere?

PTH2009

The 8pm start for the Italy game is some balls

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120694031#Comment_120694031

Which goes on to say, had Leinster not botched 5 exits. Which of those exits was executed by Byrne?