Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ShineyShiney

Cartys game is well up to this standard, I'd be a little concerned about his place kicking but other than that wouldn't be a bit worried about him starting against France. The game in Japan that he regularly gets slated for showed his quality going forward, didn't do much worse than anyone one else once it started going against us. Unless he went completely maverick with the gameplan it's hard to see why he has been overlooked imo

I also think Ross Byrne's well able with an excellent place kicking option, lacks a little pace in attack but then it's not as if Sexton is Usain Bolt now is it.

Either of these players could hold the fort for the next 2/3 years with others like Carbury, Healy, Hbyrne developing and being involved as needed.

I don't think burns has the quality of work done to be ahead of these.

Rugby4568

Interested Observer wrote: »

IT saying Sexton expected to be available (and Ryan) so he's going to start if that's the case.

Sexton and Ryan aren’t playing this weekend.

The Inbetween is mine

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Sexton and Ryan aren’t playing this weekend.

HIA's ?

Buer

Until Bernard Jackman tells me he's heard they're not going to be available, I'll believe Sexton and Ryan are out.

Rugby4568

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

HIA's ?

Yes

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

This is just absurdly reductive. And playing games guarantees you nothing, either. Italy arguably haven't had a test level 10 since Dominguez, for example.

And if Garbisi was Irish would he even be in the Irish squad? Not a chance.

Rugby4568

Buer wrote: »

Until Bernard Jackman tells me he's heard they're not going to be available, I'll believe Sexton and Ryan are out.

Well I’m going to prove you that I’m right when they’re not playing this weekend. I’ll also name the starting team tomorrow. I posted the starting team on the Leinster Rugby forum last week and I got it right even check.

The Inbetween is mine

I'm wondering...what's the minimum sign up age for boards...

sydthebeat

its_phil wrote: »

Sexton, Byrne, Frawley, and Byrne all at the one province. Wouldn’t be allowed in any other union controlled country.

jack carty... capped CONNACHT
jonny sexton... capped LEINSTER
billy burns... capped ULSTER
joey carbery.... capped MUNSTER

first choice in every province, tested and capped

2 provinces imported their first choice 10s as well....

i thin the IRFU have done loads to get top level 10s to each province

Rugby4568

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'm wondering...what's the minimum sign up age for boards...

My age is none of your business. You shouldn’t be assuming someone’s age on this

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And if Garbisi was Irish would he even be in the Irish squad? Not a chance.

Which is complete speculation on your part. My only point was that getting starts guarantees you nothing (which was your contention).

Look, I think there are arguments for each of Sexton, Burns, R. Byrne, Carty and Harry Byrne. I've no idea what the right answer is, tbh. But I just don't think it's as simple as you're making out.

siltirocker

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I’ve never seen Garry Ringrose miss a place kick. He’s a fantastic kicker

We really have it hard for 10 being the place kicker in Ireland. Fergus McFadden I think had one year with the highest percentages in Europe. Something mad like 92%. Something like 41 from 44 or 45.

Same with Fionn Carr. Gifted place kicker, massive percentages. I don't know if he was ever given a chance at Connacht/Leinster.

Western Pomise

I thought it was interesting watching 'Against the Head' last night that the panel were not overly critical of Burns for his mistakes after he came on.
Both Jackman and Lenihan said they could see what he was thinking of by trying to get last penalty kick as close to corner flag as he could.Interestingly Jackman added that a quality international should be able to deliver that kick.
They also pretty much gave him a free pass for his passing from hands which was at best average for his time on the field.His wayward pass in the move leading up to final penalty was way too deep and to nobody..... Henshaw had to actually turn around and run backwards to collect what was one of the worst passes I have ever seen at this standard of rugby.The obvious pass was to Lowe who was steaming up a few yards from him and their was a chance of a line break as Wales were short of numbers.Instead the moves momentum was killed.....although Henshaw did well by gaining a few metres by pumping the legs.

Now any player can make mistakes but Burns fitted in enough in his performance that it should not be a given that he starts against France if Sexton is ruled out.

Buer

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'm wondering...what's the minimum sign up age for boards...

For the last time, stop trying to groom posters.

siltirocker

thomond2006 wrote: »

Carty has gotten "a few games": https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/?PlayGuid=JC833818

He's been given two starts.

MOTM in one.

The other against Japan he was the best player on the pitch for 30 minutes and set up both our tries that game through individual brilliance. (Which so many seem to forget). Came off after 50 or 60 minutes. But was arguably in our best 2 or 3 performers on a widely woeful day.

Anyway, it's hardly a litany of chances.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

Which is complete speculation on your part. My only point was that getting starts guarantees you nothing (which was your contention).

Look, I think there are arguments for each of Sexton, Burns, R. Byrne, Carty and Harry Byrne. I've no idea what the right answer is, tbh. But I just don't think it's as simple as you're making out.

How many starts has any of our other 10s had that would be able to show what they can do at test level?

It’s a lot more simple than Irish fans make out, FH is a position that a player needs time to get accustomed to, how can you do that sitting in the stands?

Tommybojangles

its_phil wrote: »

Sexton, Byrne, Frawley, and Byrne all at the one province. Wouldn’t be allowed in any other union controlled country.

Where are they to go in fairness? I'd imagine it's seen currently as 2 10s at Ulster who could do a job for the national team.

One at Munster who might be first choice if fit, a solid pro and a prospect.
Leinster have the same plus Frawley who is seen as a center.
Conmacht have Carty. Fitzgerald showed some promise last year but has regressed.

All it takes is one of Burns, Byrne, Carty to make the step up to Jackson level we'll have a spectacularly healthy 10 situation. As it is two have started games and had a tough time and Burns is getting his shot at the moment

dublin49

Does anyone else feel O'Garas kicking for touch ,the low driven kick ,is not currently in the armoury of any of our current NO 10s.Certainly have never seen Sexton use it ,O Gara used to torture teams with it and seemed to get attacking field position much more than is apparent today.
Am I imagining this or is a lost art or are the back 3 set up better these days to prevent it.

siltirocker

dublin49 wrote: »

Does anyone else feel O'Garas kicking for touch ,the low driven kick ,is not currently in the armoury of any of our current NO 10s.Certainly have never seen Sexton use it ,O Gara used to torture teams with it and seemed to get attacking field position much more than is apparent today.
Am I imagining this or is a lost art or are the back 3 set up better these days to prevent it.

Carty uses it very frequently, arguably his most common kick, particularly when looking for a bit of grass. Crawley for the u20s used it a few times.

its_phil

Tommybojangles wrote: »

Where are they to go in fairness?

Yeah very fair question but isn't this the ruthlessness that we need from Nucifora? I know moving people around especially with college, etc is difficult but maybe there should be a bit more cut throat. Easily said, but hard to execute and probably unfair and cold.

Just think there is a couple of hard questions to be asked about bottlenecks and players being too comfortable.

dublin49

siltirocker wrote: »

Carty uses it very frequently, arguably his most common kick, particularly when looking for a bit of grass. Crawley for the u20s used it a few times.

My God ,my memory is it was some weapon,I was in Thomond years ago sitting near where O Gara was warming up.He was kicking across the pitch to a teammate and the ball was travelling about 10 feet the whole way.It was amazing to watch him do it again and again,like watching a golf pro hit 3 irons,

.ak

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

HIA's ?

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Yes

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'm wondering...what's the minimum sign up age for boards...

Rugby4568 wrote: »

My age is none of your business. You shouldn’t be assuming someone’s age on this

Enough with the HIA stuff, it’s a real headache...

Quit bickering and stay on topic please.

Rugby4568

siltirocker wrote: »

Carty uses it very frequently, arguably his most common kick, particularly when looking for a bit of grass. Crawley for the u20s used it a few times.

You mean Jack Crowley? I haven’t heard of any Crawley.

OldRio

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of post that lacks any and all perspective. We cannot magic players out of thin air. I will say that again in case there is any doubt. We cannot magic players out of thin air.

I've gone over this already. 10 is a difficult position to develop talent in. Who are England third and forth choice 10? Who are Frances? Players don't grow on trees. You seem to want to believe that if there's a spot open there will be a player to fill it regardless of any and all other relevant information. Your entire premise is based in fantasy though. It isnt realistic.

We have 4 teams to develop talent. We should by rights have 3 Test level 10s available to us. We only have 1 and he's at the end of his career. But s*** happens. We have others there coming through but we don't have a time machine to make them ready when they are not. Simply giving them game time is not a time machine. And exposure too early can be harmful, not beneficial.

Its maddening reading people talking about giving young lads a go when absolutely no thought whatsoever has gone into that position. Its just "young lad, play game, be better". Realism be damned.

Try to be civil to me. No need to treat me in such a way. In my other post I said it was IMHO. I stand by that. I also understood your opinion was different.

Your post smacks of a condescending attitude that some senior posters display. Time and time again.

'Magic players out of thin air' Who the hell do you think I am? Some kid out of school.

Tommybojangles

Just thought it might be an interesting comparison to look at what the situation when we made the grand slam breakthrough in 2009 was

Leinster:
Contepomi (NIQ)
Sexton (About to take the world by storm)
Nacewa (NIQ)

Munster
O'Gara (World Class)
Warwick (NIQ)
Manning (Well below the current Carty/ R Byrne /Burns level of backup)

Ulster
Ian Humphries (Never got a shot rightly or wrongly)
Paddy Wallace (Center who was backup 10 for Ireland)
Niall O 'Connor (!)

Connacht
Keatley (Prospect)
Miah Nikora.

Despite having almost no NIQs the pool os far deeper now so I think the system is working fine. The only issue is the lack of a standout player like Sexton was in 09. The 2 best players we have produced since then are not options for vastly different reasons. When Madigan looked like he could go to that level he was allowed to move on and try to establish himself.

Honestly though I don't think it helps in answering the "should H.Byrne /Healy be fast tracked?" Debate. Since Carbury went down its the first time I can remember there not being a clear no.2, and noone has filled the gap. Although the level of exposure is maybe not that high, 3 other guys have gotten starts over the last 18 months, absolutely unthinkable in 2009.

So not a massive help in the current dilemma but if you look at it comparatively it should answer some of the overly dramatic "Irish rugby is an international laughing stock and the worst thing ever in sport ever" kind of posts
(Which are a massive minority I know!)

AbusesToilets

Buer wrote: »

You can't say we should use mobility and then advocate for Ruddock in the back row. He's an absolute work horse but he's less mobile than Stander (who in no way deserves to be dropped).

It's about how to use the ball, Stander only has an eye for the smash, getting him to draw and pass is like pulling teeth. Ruddock is better in that regard, and Conan is streets ahead with his ability and vision using the ball.

It's not about simply dropping someone, rather looking to play a different style that avoids playing into Frances hands. They have a massive pack, smarter to try and run around them, rather than endlessly into them

Dubinusa

For player safety, I think Ryan and Sexton should miss this weekend at the very least.
I think sending Coombes back to Munster is bad form. He was originally picked and now he not good enough?
Unless it's injury related, it's poor for the coaching team.

The Inbetween is mine

I think the sending of Coombes back to Munster just shows what rubbish the Covid "bubble" actually is...

briandebum

molloyjh wrote: »

We have 4 teams to develop talent. We should by rights have 3 Test level 10s available to us. We only have 1 and he's at the end of his career. But s*** happens. We have others there coming through but we don't have a time machine to make them ready when they are not. Simply giving them game time is not a time machine. And exposure too early can be harmful, not beneficial.

I'm curious if anyone can give me an example of a player's long term prospects being harmed due to being promoted too early. Genuinely interested in hard examples, suspect it could be bull**** but maybe I'm wrong.

VANG1

Too much speculation, probably a good reason