Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701322#Comment_120701322

Correct; you didn’t mention Treadwell. Who Kleyn is competing with. That’s exactly the point.

Also your condescending replies of my posts is enough proof for me of your questioning my love for irish rugby

That is, being kind, a huge, huge leap tbh.

I’ll post it as plainly as I can.

I have absolutely no doubt about your love of Irish rugby.

You’re interpreting my disagreement with your selections as an insult to your love of rugby.

It’s not.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701336#Comment_120701336

So...me not mentioning Treadwell is me mentioning Treadwell?

Your correct in mentioning Klyne though.

Jump_In_Jack

John Ryan being the starting tighthead for the favourites to win the Super Rugby Pacific title this season, and if he starts the next two weekends for the semi and final he should surely be worth a call up on his return home.

Dubinusa

Looking at the Boks training squad brings up a comment by Eddie Jones last season. Jones said that they are an aging team. They are! There's not much turnover from 4 years ago.

Their loose head props are a serious proposition. They are all very strong. Ireland on the other hand look weak in comparison.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120700887#Comment_120700887

Considering the list of young irish locks who have the potential to be like kleyn is like 2/3 names, i actually do think its a big deal. We don’t produce many players like him. It would be probably wise to keep him in the system.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701319#Comment_120701319

Yes, there has been some over-the-top criticism from a minority.

But there’s also been some over-the-top dismissiveness too.

(That’s without mentioning the objectively incorrect accusations).

When that happens, I think there’s going to be a fair bit of back-and-forth, unfortunately. That doesn’t mean everyone involved is very, very unhappy with the coaching ticket.

The problem I have is that you’re lumping legitimate, fair, credible criticism in with the over-the-top stuff.

Look, at this point, I’m happy to just leave it at that FFF. I don’t think this conversation is going anywhere (to the point I’ve now been accused of insulting someone’s love of Irish rugby because I disagree with their judgement of players!) and I’m probably not helping…

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701418#Comment_120701418

I think along with 10, LH is our most problem position. We really need Porter to remain fit.

Clegg

Seems like Sexton might be hauled up before the EPCR yet. Quite a while after the final but whatever. There's a lot of supposition in the article about missing the World Cup, but they mentioned the Pau coach getting a 10 week ban for swearing at the referee and laying hands on him.

If 10 weeks is the entry point for that then I can imagine Sexton getting a 5-6 week ban for his actions, which weren't as severe. It may see him missing the warm ups and a pool game or two. Depending on if they count weeks or game weeks. Wait and see anyway.

https://twitter.com/MattHardyJourno/status/1667954948573732867?t=SkPY1K2k8zjOvj469_pDsw&s=09

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701487#Comment_120701487

Yep. He'll feature heavily. An injury to him and we'll be fcuked.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702613#Comment_120702613

The one thing that might be a concern is what role had Sexton that day. He was neither a player nor a coach, could that weigh against him.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701452#Comment_120701452

We don’t produce many players like him. 

People talk about Kleyn like he's a Skelton, Meafu, Willemse or Etzebeth in terms of size. He isn't. He's really not much bigger than Ryan or Henderson (if he is at all).

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703597#Comment_120703597

I did some research on this. I used the wiki squad lists as they are up to date on who is on each squad for next year. I didn’t include academy but i did include Edogbo as to my knowledge he has a guaranteed senior deal after next year. i used the actual team sites for numbers except for one or two guys who didn’t have it listed. I used wiki for that.

Jean Kleyn is listed as 6’ 8 and 121 Kg.

There are zero players listed at either same height/weight or taller and heavier.

There are two players listed as same height or taller. Thornbury (6’ 8) and Ahern (6’ 9).

There is one player listed at same weight or heavier. Edogbo (122kg).

I think my statement stands.

—————————————————

As an aside i can see why McCarthy’s weight (119) with his athleticism makes him an exciting prospect. Also, Edogbo is very interesting. I feel like he could be a really heavy lock that plays closer to 130. Really useful in Munster’s game plan.

Also, he is bedevilled with injuries but Ahern is a pretty unique player in ireland. He is young enough to still add weight and keep alot of athleticism.

Brief_Lives

Would it be an idea to make POM captain, or Ryan or anyone else than Sexton. This recent rant shows Sexton shouldn't be interacting with refs.

pickarooney

Yeah, I imagine the refs have had enough of his gobbing off and it would be a disadvantage to have him contesting any debatable decisions.

POM has an... interesting relationship with refs. He has this ability to go from blinding rage to timidly apologetic in the blink of an eye.

Jump_In_Jack

Josh Van der Flier would be a good captain in my opinion. He is a first choice starter and he has everyone’s respect (teammates, opponents, officials) and he is heavily involved in the play at all times. His strength is his tone is consistently respectful, and he appears as calmness personified no matter what the situation. He speaks very well in interviews, very genuine and tactful. Basically a class act as well as a class player.

pickarooney

The new meta is that everyone hates Van Der Flier for milking penalties and moaning at the refs. I've heard this from commentators, journalists and opposition fans (of Leinster and Ireland).

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703638#Comment_120703638

I'm not seeing a massive size difference.

Yeah maybe he has a few kgs on Ryan. But anyone who thinks that Jean Kleyn is going to be the answer to us dominating the French or South African packs is living in fantasy land

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704128#Comment_120704128

But, but the Power!

letsbefair

Not sure what meta means but if people are talking about Josh like they did about McCaw make him captain now!

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704128#Comment_120704128

Take that up with the provinces and how they list players.

There is no irish player in ireland at least listed 6’8 or over and 120kg or over except him.

All I said is that we don’t have many locks of his profile and it literally correct. That is what you quibbled with. Not some other thing about needing south african packs or whatever that you are going with now.

@TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704606#Comment_120704606

Yeah, but I think the point he's making is that there are quite a few guys broadly similarish in size.

Even though guys like James Ryan are a little bit lighter and possibly an inch shorter, he's quite a bit quicker over the ground, and likely no less powerful.

Jean Kleyn is obviously a big unit, but he's not a force of nature in the second row like the guys @TRC10 mentioned in his original post on this topic like Skelton (6ft 8, 140kgs), Manny Meafou (6ft 8, 140kgs), Paul Willemse (6ft 7, 129kgs), and he doesn't bring the physical impact Eben Etzebeth or Lood de Jager brings.

Kleyn is closer in size to Ryan, Henderson etc than he is to the gargantuan bunch of unicorns that are Skelton, Meafou etc. There is no sense in portraying him as the latter type of second row.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704668#Comment_120704668

There aren’t quite a few guys listed as broadly similar unless you think 6’6 is similar to 6’8. In that case, 6’4 is similar to 6’6 so we can really expand who can play credibly play lock.

James Ryan is listed as 1 inch shorter and about 5kg lighter. Almost everyone else is 6’6 max including Henderson.

We just don’t produce many guys who get to 6’8 and none at that weight. He is an unusual profile for an irish lock. We actually don’t produce many guys over 120kg at all at that position. By my count it is two total.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704690#Comment_120704690

We didn't "produce" him either.

Joe McCarthy is absolutely of a similar physical profile to Kleyn - he's a couple of inches shorter and listed at 2kg lighter, but he's also only just turned 22 and is significantly quicker over the ground. Edogbo is three inches shorter, but of similar weight, and equally, probably going to be more powerful in time given how young he is, as he's also likelier to be quicker. Even guys like Cormac Izuchukwu are of broadly similar physical size - he's listed at 6ft 7 and 117kg, and is far quicker given his 7s background.

I'm not saying these guys are better rugby players necessarily than Kleyn right now, but your continued suggestion that we absolutely can't produce guys of his physical prototype doesn't seem accurate.

If you said we couldn't produce guys like Skelton etc I'd agree with you, but Kleyn isn't like Skelton either.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704606#Comment_120704606

All I said is that we don’t have many locks of his profile and it literally correct. 

Ok, so what? Just because he's supposedly a few kgs heavier than our other locks, doesn't mean he should be in the squad. That young lad from Belvo is 6'10 and probably 120kg+. That doesn't mean he should be in the Ireland squad.

And whatever about what wikipedia says, if you look at the photo, him and Ryan are literally the same height. Do you not think Ryan could quite easily put on an extra 3 or 4 kgs if he or the coaches wanted him to?

If Kleyn was the size of a Skelton or Meafu, you'd have a point. But he's not. He's the same height as Ryan and a few kgs heavier. The narrative that Kleyn is some collosus is just untrue.

pickarooney

Your man Alan Spicer(?) at Belvedere, if he makes it, could be one of the biggest locks in the country.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704723#Comment_120704723

I mentioned McCarthy and Edogbo in my original reply. Those two and Ahern are the ones i’d namecheck as the ones who could be in the same vein. McCarthy and Edogbo are never going to be as tall though (i guess edogbo could still grow) no matter how much 6’8 is now 6’6 apparently.

I have no idea when i said anything about ‘absolutely can’t produce’ guys of his profile. I said we don’t produce many.

That is LITERALLY true.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704738#Comment_120704738

So what? Why the **** were you arguing with something you don’t care about?

TRC10

I personally find it quite funny that South Africa are now picking up our rejects.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704750#Comment_120704750

Really? How tall is he? I read that he is a bit of a monster.

I thought about doing academies but its hard to find heights and weights.

TRC10

They're literally the same size lads. Use your eyes instead of just believing whatever the current edgy narrative is.