Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Must love hardship

briandebum wrote: »

I'm curious if anyone can give me an example of a player's long term prospects being harmed due to being promoted too early. Genuinely interested in hard examples, suspect it could be bull**** but maybe I'm wrong.

Billy Burns.

The Inbetween is mine

POM's hearing started 3 hours ago...

irishbucsfan

briandebum wrote: »

I'm curious if anyone can give me an example of a player's long term prospects being harmed due to being promoted too early. Genuinely interested in hard examples, suspect it could be bull**** but maybe I'm wrong.

It’s quite difficult to say if a player didn’t make it because they never would have been good enough, but Gatland certainly went with a good few young debutants who never ended up reaching what seemed to be their potential (the likes of Tom Prydie)

Must love hardship

briandebum wrote: »

I'm curious if anyone can give me an example of a player's long term prospects being harmed due to being promoted too early. Genuinely interested in hard examples, suspect it could be bull**** but maybe I'm wrong.

A case could be made that D'Arcy medium term prospects were harmed due to being promoted too early. Worked out ok in the end.

Adam Byrne was youngest player for leinster up until last month.. might not be connected but riddled with injuries.. maybe needed more time to develop

Michael Bent..

AbusesToilets

briandebum wrote: »

I'm curious if anyone can give me an example of a player's long term prospects being harmed due to being promoted too early. Genuinely interested in hard examples, suspect it could be bull**** but maybe I'm wrong.

Who was that English center who got emptied by Henson in 2005, Tait?

Could argue Luke suffered physically from coming thru too soon, but that's less of an issue nowadays, given the improvement in sports science

LuckyLloyd

aloooof wrote: »

This is exactly the type of post I dislike on here, tbh.

There are legit reasons someone might want Sexton to start, Ross Byrne / Billy Burns or even Harry Byrne to start etc. But to argue it to the point that you claim you de facto know better than Andy Farrell is just hubris.

This is not really an issue with Andy Farrell, nor am I seriously suggesting that Sexton et al don't give us the best chance to win this week.

Your appeal to authority here rings hollow. Our continued World Cup failures cannot be ignored. The IRFU is locked in a short term mode of thinking where it tries to win as many 6 Nations games it can and it is now beyond argument that its approach is failing every four years in the more important test. This is a small time mindset - steal the odd triple crown or grand slam - where maybe we get enough days out against England to keep the marketing budget ticking over.

Andy Farrell is doing the right thing for his own job and I don't blame him. Nor do I blame the likes of Sexton, Healy or Earls who performed admirably on Sunday.

But again, what's the long term plan here? What are we doing? It is fully delusional to think we are winning a championship or grand slam this six nations. It is completely unsupported by our form or available best lineup. As a consequence, it is absolutely the time to give older players a few weeks off and spread meaningful experience amongst the age relevant playing pool.

Interested Observer

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Well I’m going to prove you that I’m right when they’re not playing this weekend. I’ll also name the starting team tomorrow. I posted the starting team on the Leinster Rugby forum last week and I got it right even check.

Think I saw that, did you not say Kilcoyne would be starting?

aloooof

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is not really an issue with Andy Farrell, nor am I seriously suggesting that Sexton et al don't give us the best chance to win this week.

Your appeal to authority here rings hollow. Our continued World Cup failures cannot be ignored. The IRFU is locked in a short term mode of thinking where it tries to win as many 6 Nations games it can and it is now beyond argument that its approach is failing every four years in the more important test. This is a small time mindset - steal the odd triple crown or grand slam - where maybe we get enough days out against England to keep the marketing budget ticking over.

Andy Farrell is doing the right thing for his own job and I don't blame him. Nor do I blame the likes of Sexton, Healy or Earls who performed admirably on Sunday.

But again, what's the long term plan here? What are we doing? It is fully delusional to think we are winning a championship or grand slam this six nations. It is completely unsupported by our form or available best lineup. As a consequence, it is absolutely the time to give older players a few weeks off and spread meaningful experience amongst the age relevant playing pool.

But the highlighted point is completely at odds with your claim that selecting Earls / Healy / Sexton was indefensible. You've just defended it yourself with a pretty reasonably explanation.

I'm not saying Farrell is correct either, just to be clear. Just that saying his selections were "indefensible" is inaccurate.

Fwiw, I'd contend that none of Earls / Healy / Sexton played admirably. The 2 former played reasonably well / acceptably, but Earls was poor. I expect him to miss out this weekend because of it, tbh.

Interested Observer

I thought Keenan had a pretty good game, but is it just me or does he look like he gets fairly smashed a lot of the time when he goes into contact?

The Inbetween is mine

Interested Observer wrote: »

I thought Keenan had a pretty good game, but is it just me or does he look like he gets fairly smashed a lot of the time when he goes into contact?

Seems to enter contact almost vertical quite a lot

P.Walnuts

Interested Observer wrote: »

I thought Keenan had a pretty good game, but is it just me or does he look like he gets fairly smashed a lot of the time when he goes into contact?

I think one of his attributes is riding tackles tbh

Apart fro mthe AWJ one, i didn't see him get hit hard

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

I fired up the Autumn Nations Cup game and it took me 37 seconds into the game to find this image. Byrne passes it onto O'Mahony and we inevitably lose ground. Whatever you say about Sexton, I don't think we ever see him play this deep.

Also here’s a picture of Sexton playing that deep...

LuckyLloyd

aloooof wrote: »

But the highlighted point is completely at odds with your claim that selecting Earls / Healy / Sexton was indefensible. You've just defended it yourself with a pretty reasonably explanation.

I'm not saying Farrell is correct either, just to be clear. Just that saying his selections were "indefensible" is inaccurate.

Fwiw, I'd contend that none of Earls / Healy / Sexton played admirably. The 2 former played reasonably well / acceptably, but Earls was poor. I expect him to miss out this weekend because of it, tbh.

I think this is the problem. We're locked into a prison of thinking we can never approach a 6 nations championship with an eye on the more important long term objective.

Yes, from a perspective of preparing for the 2023 World Cup in the context of where we are from a perspective of being able to win the 6 nations, I think those selections are indefensible. It simply does not align with a longer term vision (and 2023 is now medium term if anything!!).

As for "admirably", well you're just nitpicking now. My expectations for these players are lowered at this stage of their career. Earls started well, and was solid defensively. Healy scrummaged well and Sexton had a good first half. Sexton (if recovered) and Healy offer us the best chance to win next week.

But neither should start...

Former Former Former

Dubinusa wrote: »

For player safety, I think Ryan and Sexton should miss this weekend at the very least.
I think sending Coombes back to Munster is bad form. He was originally picked and now he not good enough?
Unless it's injury related, it's poor for the coaching team.

He wasn't picked. He was brought in to train last week. They're not the same thing.

Interested Observer

https://www.the42.ie/tadhg-beirne-ireland-wales-5349426-Feb2021/

So Beirne played well.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Also here’s a picture of Sexton playing that deep...

This might sound antagonistic, and I don't mean it to be, but did it take you until the 12 minute point in that game to find that screenshot? It took me 37 seconds into the England game to find the one from Ross Byrne.

Also, they're deep enough that they both look to be kicking on that phase. I've checked and Sexton kicked a contestable on his. But Byrne passed and kicked the contestable on the next phase, from maybe 5-10 yards deeper than was necessary if he had done it on that phase.

Look at the difference on where the 2 rucks are. And look at the difference on where they both end up kicking a contestable from.

Look, I know I'm not going to change you mind. And I'm not even saying that Ross Byrne shouldn't start at the weekend if Sexton is out. But my feeling is he plays too deep and too lateral for Test level.

ROG made the point that it may make sense to start Ross Byrne and bring Billy Burns on from the bench, in terms of what they bring to the team. I can see a lot of sense in that, tbh.

ionadnapokot

The important thing to note is that both Sexton and Byrne are doing exactly what they should be doing in both those passages of play if they want to launch a Garryowen.

Which is exactly what they both do.

It's a set tactic Ireland employ when receiving a clearing kick from the 22.

Bring the forward in for a phase or 2. Organise your chasers and launch it.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

This might sound antagonistic, and I don't mean it to be, but did it take you until the 12 minute point in that game to find that screenshot? It took me 37 seconds into the England game to find the one from Ross Byrne.

Also, they're deep enough that they both look to be kicking on that phase. I've checked and Sexton kicked a contestable on his. But Byrne passed and kicked the contestable on the next phase, from maybe 5-10 yards deeper than was necessary if he had done it on that phase.

Look at the difference on where the 2 rucks are. And look at the difference on where they both end up kicking a contestable from.

Look, I know I'm not going to change you mind. And I'm not even saying that Ross Byrne shouldn't start at the weekend if Sexton is out. But my feeling is he plays too deep and too lateral for Test level.

ROG made the point that it may make sense to start Ross Byrne and bring Billy Burns on from the bench, in terms of what they bring to the team. I can see a lot of sense in that, tbh.

I picked that moment because it was the only time the two fly halves had similar positions on the field.

It only looks like you are covering for Sexton when he does it but covering RB when he does, the hypocrisy is incredible.

The question is how is RB supposed to improve these aspects of his game at test level when he doesn’t play?

Larbre34

Why is Madigan never in the conversation at all?

Works brilliantly with gameplaying 9's, hugely experienced under pressure, very good place kicker, in very good form for Ulster starting and coming off the bench. 31 years old.

What am I missing?

prawnsambo

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why is Madigan never in the conversation at all?

Works brilliantly with gameplaying 9's, hugely experienced under pressure, very good place kicker, in very good form for Ulster starting and coming off the bench. 31 years old.

What am I missing?

I hesitate to say this on a public forum, but he's not young enough. Apparently.

prawnsambo

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I picked that moment because it was the only time the two fly halves had similar positions on the field.

It only looks like you are covering for Sexton when he does it but covering RB when he does, the hypocrisy is incredible.

The question is how is RB supposed to improve these aspects of his game at test level when he doesn’t play?

If he does it at club level all the time would be a good start.

irishbucsfan

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why is Madigan never in the conversation at all?

Works brilliantly with gameplaying 9's, hugely experienced under pressure, very good place kicker, in very good form for Ulster starting and coming off the bench. 31 years old.

What am I missing?

He’s not good enough

The Inbetween is mine

3 matches for POM

prawnsambo

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

3 matches for POM

That's light enough. Got the full 'I'm a good boy' allowance.

theVersatile

POM back for the English game then - that'll be a big boost

And if I see one more "CJ doesn't pass" comment I'm going to scream

tgdaly

theVersatile wrote: »

POM back for the English game then - that'll be a big boost

And if I see one more "CJ doesn't pass" comment I'm going to scream

Big boost for England alright

theVersatile

tgdaly wrote: »

Big boost for England alright

Lot of goldfish memory on display here.

Larbre34

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He’s not good enough

Whats the evidence that he's a worse player than Billy Burns or Ross Byrne?

tgdaly

theVersatile wrote: »

Lot of goldfish memory on display here.

Has actually been my opinion for a while now, red card very little to do with it

Clegg

Don't see the point in parachuting POM back into the squad for one game. Bring in a younger player or see if Beirne/Ruddock can cut at at blindside.