Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927507#Comment_120927507

Boom Boom Boom

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927377#Comment_120927377

I'd have to agree with you.

I used to work in one of the larger Wellington schools and there were loads of kids who identified as Samoan, Fijian or Tongan because of their parents, rather than as kiwis. Plenty of them had no interest in rugby or weren't any good. They had moved to NZ for their parents to work. And sure thered be even more in Auckland.

However I do still distinctly remember at least one kid whose parents were islanders who told me he hated the ABs and would actively cheer against them. So there are some people living in NZ who DO feel the ABs are poaching islanders 🤷‍♂️

TheRona

The best thing about Ireland getting the upper hand on NZ the last few years, is that Irish youth will no longer be brought up on old wives tales to make them feel better.

Things like:

"its just because they plunder the South Sea Islands"

"it's just because the ref is afraid to give them a card"

"King Richie is a cheat"

Etc etc

😁

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927682#Comment_120927682

Haha. Very true. But I'm FFF will keep singing that song. But now we can claim that Ireland are only good because they plunder NZ, Aus and RSA playing stocks, Sexton bullies refs, etc. 😁

Former Former Former

Meh, when people are this desperate to deflect and counter arguments that no one made, then it's a pretty sure sign that something is off.

It's an odious practice but no one in NZ is going to stop it and if there's one thing we know about World Rugby, it's that they won't be going to bat for the tier 2 countries.

Carry on.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927474#Comment_120927474

Sevu reece had signed for Connacht in 2018 and would have been an irish project player only he had a domestic violence case and had his contract cancelled and stayed in NZ.

Healy is not the same as all these other project players like JGP, lowe and stander he is more comparable with Hansen as he is half irish/half Scottish. Hansen has turned out to be one that got away from Australia.

Healy may well turn out to be one that got away too but currently there is a glut of irish 10's at a similar age and point in their career's. But not all of them had alternative options with a straightforward route to international rugby.

It's not like Scotland U20s have produced any players, let alone 10's, over the past few years.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927864#Comment_120927864

Tom English talked about this and Scottish rugby have little to no interest in developing Scottish players

I have good money on them been the first team with a full import team from around the World….

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927838#Comment_120927838

Is it as odious as offering a professional player loads of money to switch countries? How much does an Irish jersey cost? I don't know, ask Lowe, JGP, Stander, Aki, Payne, Strauss, Kleyn, Roux, Reidy and others. Not only have you proven your ignorance, you have shown your hypocrisy.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928400#Comment_120928400

Yes, it is more odious. Not even close, and not really comparable tbh.

I didn't particularly agree with it, but Lowe, JGP, Stander, Aki, Payne, Strauss, Kleyn, Roux, Reidy were all grown men and professional rugby players when they made their decisions to move.

NZ are targeting 13 & 14 year old kids from very poor countries to leave home purely to bolster their stocks of rugby players.

I really don't see them as similar problems.

But again, it's something that helps tier 1 countries and hurts only a small subset of tier 2, so not only will nothing change but no one will even discuss it.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927952#Comment_120927952

I'm not sure it's no interest in developing more that the situation has gone on so long and become so dire that it would take a serious amount of investment and a full generation before we'd see the proper benefits of it. Rugby is punching above its weight in Scotland in terms of the results on the field both at senior test level and for Glasgow/Edinburgh. I doubt they have the funds available needed to really overhaul their development and structures.

If we look at their U20 team, the players simply aren't there and that is something that needs to be addressed when these lads are 12-14 years old. Hopefully they are trying to address it behind the scenes but, right now, things are going from bad to worse for them at underage level. Their results in the U20 6N in recent years are eye watering.

2017: 5th (beat Italy in Scotland)

2018: Wooden Spoon

2019: Wooden Spoon

2020: Abandoned

2021: Wooden Spoon

2022: Wooden Spoon (had 40 put on them that summer by Georgia)

2023: Somehow didn't get the Wooden Spoon as they beat Wales despite having 40 put on them in Glasgow by Italy and 80 by Ireland. Went on to lose to Uruguay in the World Rugby Trophy and, whilst they beat Zimbabwe, they conceded 33 to them.

The game is in a bad way in Scotland. It appears to be run in a far more pragmatic way from a financial perspective but I wonder is part of that refusing to spend any money on anything outside of senior men's rugby.

As long as they can pick up established pros from other countries who can supplement their professional game and keep it above water, they're going to keep doing it.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926845#Comment_120926845

It doesn’t matter how good Healy has been in the last 6 months though. It matters how good he was back in October 2022. There was almost no talk at all of him missing out on the 2022 6Ns squad or the tour to NZ. Same for the Autumn Internationals. His form picked up after he decided to leave. But by then it was too late as he was leaving.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928554#Comment_120928554

This seems to be totally overlooked by many (and more likely deliberately ignored by some).

If Healy was remaining in Ireland, I'd 100% back him to be in the Irish squad currently based on his showings from the SA A game onwards in November. But he hadn't shown anything close to that level of performance and consistency previously. Even in the early games of the season, he was very much a contributing part of the misfiring team that was struggling.

He got his season together from November onwards. He announced he was moving to Scotland in the first week of January. One would assume that the talks on the move were already well advanced in November/December.

All the best to him, he's made a ballsy move and I've no doubt he's going to enjoy far more international exposure and probably better financial rewards overall as a result.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928549#Comment_120928549

SRU's income seems around stg65m (2022) while IRFU's is around e85m (2021), so a lot more but the SRU still has a lot of income to manage the game. It's got to be more than just a lack of money.

easymoneysnipa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928554#Comment_120928554

Good form in 2021 when Ireland were capping AIL replacement level players like Harry Byrne at 10. Lotta shyster talk about 2022 going around.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928549#Comment_120928549

Ireland had a bonus try in 20 mins wasn't it? game was over before a ball was kicked

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928570#Comment_120928570

Most of this is fair but I am skeptical of this tbh:

If Healy was remaining in Ireland, I'd 100% back him to be in the Irish squad currently

In any case, I think there are others who can feel more hard done by than Healy, but my question on the following would be:

he hadn't shown anything close to that level of performance and consistency previously.

Did the alternatives that were getting called into camp? I’m not sure they did either. RB did. But I’m not sure we can say the same of HB or Frawley? (Particularly at 10 for the latter, obviously).

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928624#Comment_120928624

One good game against the Scarlets is not "good form"

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928970#Comment_120928970

I'll never understand the Frawley thing, but I think its fair to say that the absolute most hard done by player not to be called back into the squad is Billie Burns and not Healy.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928970#Comment_120928970

To clarify, I personally would back him to be brought into the squad i.e. deserving of inclusion. Whether he would be included is another story.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929060#Comment_120929060

I think Burns has correctly fallen off the radar entirely after his last season but he was playing some really nice stuff in 2021/22 and was completely frozen out of the set up which I thought was harsh.

I can only assume that the Irish coaching team had made their minds up entirely about him but it was unusual to see just how far he fell so quickly. Jack Carty is a similar scenario. I don't think either deserve to be anywhere near an Irish 23 now but it's surprising that, given our merry go round and depth at 10, they were both unceremoniously dumped from fairly high places. Burns started against France in the 2021 6N. He got a sub appearance that summer against Japan and has never been in an Irish squad since.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928549#Comment_120928549

I admire their pragmatism. If they went full-bore financing a game that's not viable they'd be worse off than Wales in no time. When the choice is between having a few imports every year and having no team or finishing a distant last every year, it's an easy decision.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929252#Comment_120929252

I also find the the complete turnaround on RB fairly bizarre.

Safe to say, while the coaching team clearly know what they are doing, the handling of the fly half position is not something I've really understood.

pickarooney

For me the Ross Byrne thing was just a case of 'we have 4 years to find a new 10, we'll go in hard on Carbery as the best talent and give a few others a bit of time just in case'. Then the closer we got to the WC, the less Carbery looked like a solution, the less exposure anyone else had and the less it looked like the whole thing would pan out the way they hoped so they pivoted to 'guy who is fine but won't light the place up' while giving Crowley as much chance as possible to get up to speed.

I think it had to be done; I wouldn't fault them for doing it and commend them for not going all sunk-cost on JC and being able to bring back in a player who's been solid throughout.

I never thought Harry Byrne looked remotely like an international 10, injuries notwithstanding. But I accept that they have far more insight into the player than I ever will. Burns is in a similar mould to Ross Byrne and they could just have easily brought him back in. Familiarity with the rest of the squad through playing with a more successful side maybe swings it in RB's favour.

Carty? Sorry, just no. Not the first cousin of an Ireland FH for me and I don't really understand why other 10s haven't been pushed to Connacht. I know Healy didn't want to play for another Irish province but he could have taken the OH jersey there and been at least in the conversation for an Ireland cap.

AdamD

Burns not kicking at club level was always going to be a big factor against him

Former Former Former

I think Ross Byrne is a great example of how some guys grab their chances more than others. He got dropped into the squad at short notice, from waaay back in the field, and he obviously showed the coaches something that they really liked, and continued to do so for the 6N. Plenty of other guys have had these sort of chances and haven't seized them like he did, so he's doing something right.

If Carbery or Frawley had been fit for the Australia game, Byrne wouldn't have got that chance and maybe wouldn't have been in the Six Nations either, so a lot of it is down to circumstances.

Hard to see RB being the long-term successor though, but he'll only be 32 come the next RWC so it's not out of the question if no-one else steps up (but let's hope it doesn't come to that).

Clegg

Players will have their names printed on their jerseys for this weekend's game.

Some like the tradition of nameless jerseys, I like the idea of the change.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1686712163392425984?t=JHx_1_7U7wl1MK8Z2o8ZmA&s=09

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929971#Comment_120929971

I'm a fan of it. It makes it easy for more casual fans who don't know all the players to figure out who they are without having to ask someone or check the team sheet. I wish they would all do it because while I know most of the Irish players I wouldn't know most of the other nations players and same with the club rugby as I don't watch it much.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929971#Comment_120929971

No issues with this. What I would be against is squad numbers like football, like players being assigned numbers 1-33 for an entire campaign. I hope rugby doesn't go down that road

Rugbymad2020

So looks like he was part of WC plans

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928624#Comment_120928624

He wasn’t playing that well in 2021. He was decent but no more. And 2022 is especially relevant to decisions made in, well, 2022.