Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993028#Comment_120993028

Yet the Ireland coach's, including Paulie who has a big pick in these players, haven't picked him for games.

I don' think anyone is saying that Coombes won't play for Ireland at some stage but it's a bit over the top at this stage the discussion. The old bias line which was fired out when Schmidt was coach has no relevance either with Farrell and Paulie in situ

Out of interest, what was Scott Penny stats last season?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993047#Comment_120993047

But I didn't mention bias in my post. In any case...

Out of interest, what was Scott Penny stats last season?

Comparing like for like, in the Champions cup, Penny only played 94 minutes over 3 games. But normailising that to 80 mins for each peformance (which Coombes did, so again to compare like-with-like), he averaged the following:

10.2 carries per game, 29.8 metres, 6.8 tackles, 0 turnovers, and no tries.

Some of those are admittedly higher-variance stats than others, but he isn't ahead of Coombes in a single metric. From the stats I've used, on average, Coombes is averaging:

• 4.5 more carries
• 21.5 more metres
• 10.2 more tackles
• 1.3 more turnovers
• 1 more try

Per game.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993020#Comment_120993020

The same poster will tell you stats are irrelvant :-)

Ya, see, you can claim that but you won't find a single post of mine saying that.

I accept stats can only tell you so much. Particularly the fairly rudimentary ones on the various stats sites. But they don't tell you nothing either.

In Coombes' case, he passes both the stat-test and the eye-test.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993156#Comment_120993156

it was a joke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993141#Comment_120993141

I would have just pulled his stats for season as Penny wasn’t playing the majority of games in Europe

Anyway

As I said the Irish management havent picked him for some reason so we have to go on that, I’m sure of ireland don’t win the WC this will be thrown up again

Coombes will play for ireland in the future would be my guess, ireland have rightly gone with the better options for this WC at the moment with Coombes I guess on standby

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993251#Comment_120993251

I would have just pulled his stats for season as Penny wasn’t playing the majority of games in Europe

Feel free to do just that if you wish. But I'd add, because Penny hasn't played the majority of games in Europe, on average he has played against a lower calibre of opposition than Coombes.

For example, nearly 40% of Penny's total minutes came vs the bottom 5 teams in the league. Only 14% of Coombe's minutes were against those teams.

Happyhouse22

Was talking to someone close to Munster set up last year, don’t remember exactly what they said about Coombes, but something to the effect that the coaches found him frustrating.I didn’t necessarily get the impression he was a bad trainer but maybe an inconsistent one which sometimes annoyed the coaches. Can see how this wouldn’t translate well in the international setup.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991797#Comment_120991797

Coombes is a level below The Leinster/Ireland backrow though because he hasn't come even remotely close to being picked ahead of the guys he would be competing against for gametime for a World Cup warm up game

Top class coaches with a highly successful track record in the last few years with the Ireland team with access to a million times more information then us plebs haven't given him a look in at all.

Doris, Conan, POM and Baird are all better players. So not sure where Coombes fits into the picture here barring injuries.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993690#Comment_120993690

Or, alternatively, they all suit Farrell’s game plan more.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993320#Comment_120993320

Not for one solitary second do I believe this.

phog

The Man

https://twitter.com/CaolanSRugby/status/1692444321406972107?t=CPIZITdTXg_cXKFSPVNsAg&s=19

theVersatile

The thing I still don't get is that if Coombes isn't a system for, why would be be called up in the first place instead of somebody like Deegan, Paul Boyle, or Jack O'Donoghue, or somebody with that more athletic style?

(Before I get jumped on, no, I'm not actually suggesting that Boyle or JOD get called up. I was just giving examples of that style of backrow).

I can only presume Prendergast is starting at 8 this weekend to protect Doris since Conan is still uncertain. Whatever about him being a more versatile player than Coombes, he certainly isn't a better eight.

Locke_Lamora

Admittedly I prefer Conan to Coombes, although I am a little bemused at Coombes’ complete alienation from a match day squad. He seems like a player I would’ve wanted a close look at in in-game scenarios.

But what specific flaws do people think makes him unsuitable for Farrell’s game plan or what do you think he lacks as a player that prevents the national coaches from rating him at all really?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993944#Comment_120993944

I think previously, tackling may have been one area. It doesn’t speak to the quality, but he’s certainly improved his output there this season. (Fwiw, I also think he’s improved his mid to long range passing this season too).

I suspect it could be to do with rucking tho. Ruck stats are obviously notoriously difficult to come by but it wouldn’t surprise me if Prendergast was quicker to the ruck than him, and ahead of him in that area.

Buer

I do think there's more to it than the "system" line we hear so much. Doris and Conan are more aligned with that style of play and probably more comfortable attacking soft shoulders in wider channels, getting their hand free or acting as a pivot in midfield. But Coombes isn't bad at those things. It's not his stand out feature but we've all seen him offload and show good hands.

The one thing I've always noted against him (and he has improved) was that he's generally good for one or two missed tackles in a game. I've seen him deliver some sloppy, borderline lazy tackling efforts in URC games which is often masked by just how impactful he is when he gets the ball in his hands. I'm not sure if that would be a point of difference but perhaps. But, if we're singling out specific elements of an individual, you could level discipline at the likes of Prendergast, McCarthy or even Doris (who had a bad habit of giving away a dumb penalty or two every game for a long time).

I listed out the 7 guys I thought that were on the outside of the squad based on selections over the past year and Coombes was definitely in that group. He's got two top class No. 8s in front of him which is unfortunate. It will certainly be a case of him being better than guys who are in the squad but they are fortunate enough to occupy different positions where we are less stacked.

But I think there's an issue that we're not privy to here. It might be attitude. It might be specifics of his performance. It might be how be that he likes pineapple on his pizza and Farrell is disgusted with him (and he'd be right to be disgusted). We'll never know. But I don't think Coombes is ever going to be in the Irish 23 with any consistency until, at the very least, Conan fades from that level in 1-2 years. Even then, you'd think Prendergast and Baird are probably next up for the 6/20 jersey (assuming POM is gone too by then).

Just one other point of note, Coombes is seen as an option to cover lock by some. He started a single game there this season when Munster were absolutely down to the bare bones at lock. I was looking at the team photo from the Portugal camp with interest. There's not a hope that Coombes is 6'6" which is his listed height. You can see that lads like McCarthy and Baird (both listed at 6'6") are clearly taller than him and he's not that much taller than people like Bealham and VDF (both listed at 6'2"). He might be able to cover lock in a URC game at a pinch but I'm guessing versatility was never a consideration for him in the Irish coaches eyes.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994037#Comment_120994037

Agree with all of this except for the patently wrong opinion about pineapple on pizzas.

To that, I'll give a robust "Shut up, Buer"

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993944#Comment_120993944

im a coombes fan, i think he has physical attributes that some of our other options dont have but...

But what specific flaws do people think makes him unsuitable for Farrell’s game plan or what do you think he lacks as a player that prevents the national coaches from rating him at all really?

in all honesty no one here can answer that, or more specifically, only the national coaches can answer that.

while we play what appears to be "off the cuff" rugby at times, its been said by players in the group that its actually highly organised and detailed, with right and wrong decisions to be made during the plays. Maybe its simply a case of Coombes needing more time to "get it" rather than any technically or skill based deficiency?

in truth, we dont know. he just has better players ahead of him for his main positions.

Jump_In_Jack

I think the issue for Coombes is more to do with the squad makeup, @Akrasia made a similar post (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990084/#Comment_120990084) about this already, but this is how I see it:

6. O'Mahony, 7. Van der Flier, 8. Doris, 20.Conan, and then Baird is a 4/6 cover as follows:

Scenario 1. O'Mahony injured (not available for selection): 6. Doris, 7. Van der Flier, 8. Conan, 20. Baird. Here Baird covers 4/6 as injury replacement and Doris could shift to 7 or 8 to cover those positions if needed with Baird coming in at 6.

Scenario 2. Van der Flier injured (not available for selection): 6. Doris, 7. O'Mahony, 8. Conan, 20. Baird. Here Baird covers 4/6 as injury replacement and Doris could shift to 7 or 8 to cover those positions if needed with Baird coming in at 6.

Scenario 3. Both O'Mahony and Van der Flier injured (not available for selection): 6. Baird, 7. Doris, 8. Conan, 20. Prendergast. Here Prendergast covers 6, 7 and 8.

(The above is a simple example but as VdF, P O'M and Doris are our three 7's, then the same applies if any two of them are injured.)

In Scenario 3 above this is the key difference between Coombes and Prendergast, as in this scenario there would be no cover at 7 should Doris get injured during the match. Now the question is, are the coaches taking these considerations into account for selection, for the final squad cover position, and I think they probably are. The reason being, against the first two sides in the pools they will want to protect O'Mahony, Van der Flier and Doris somewhat. So having a player that can play 7 and take some minutes off the others would be welcome. As @Neil3030 already made the point, (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120992319/#Comment_120992319) it becomes more a case of whether we need Prendergast over McCarthy, or maybe even Kilcoyne/Loughman or McCloskey or Earls for example. Whereas for Coombes the case wouldn't be made in the same way, in Coombes case I think he is in direct opposition with Conan and they have made the choice to prefer Conan in this instance. So right now Prendergast is either in the 33 or he is the first man outside the 33 that would get the call up if one of the 5 back rows get injured, and so Coombes would need 2 injuries to get the call up. That's my understanding at least, looking at it from a pure spectator point of view and no knowledge of what goes on inside the training camp or what the selectors are thinking.

I'm inclined to think Prendergast won't make the 33 though, as if they wanted to bring a 6th back row I think they would have had another specialist 7 in the training camp all along. I think Baird is ahead of Prendergast but I could be wrong.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994037#Comment_120994037

Although Coombes only started one game in the row, it's worth noting he finished a number of games there this season.

I'll have to look at some pictures myself but I'd have put Coombes at around 6'5 myself - at the lower limit of the lock height standard.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994155#Comment_120994155

This is exactly it in my view.

When mapping out your "worst case scenarios" with a rigid 33 man squad , Prendergast is a better fit than Coombes given the positions he covers and the positions covered by the other players that are already certain to be part of the squad.

Is Coombes a better 8 than Prendergast - Yes

Is Coombes a better 6 than Prendergast - Maybe

Is Coombes a better 7 than Prendergast - No

Given the make up of the Irish squad , Ireland need cover at 6 and 7 not 8.

It's not about being "good enough" or "better" per se , it's about offering the solution to a need should it arise.

ZookeeperDub

Coombes has 2 caps for Ireland? one A cap? The Maori games in NZ?

He has been knocking around some squads and plenty he hasn't.

The coaching ticket have spent 4 years trying to build a squad they think will win the World Cup. During that time Coombes hasn't really been in the mix apart from in the odd squad.

Sorry but it is totally over the top reaction to him getting dropped out of the squad. If he was ever going to be in the picture he would have more caps already and he would have started v Italy to give him more minutes.

It's totally over the top. If the guy had 20-30 caps and was playing in 6 nation match's etc you could maybe say it's a shock but he wasn't.

Blade is not far off him in terms of caps. Played v Italy and yet not really a whisper about him getting dropped. The guy has been in fantastic form all season, is a seasoned pro and has been playing great rugby for years now.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994431#Comment_120994431

It's totally over the top. If the guy had 20-30 caps and was playing in 6 nation match's etc you could maybe say it's a shock but he wasn't.

But I don’t think anyone has said it’s a shock? You’re misrepresenting what people are actually saying here.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994472#Comment_120994472

Look at the amount of posts since the initial squad was announced for a guy who has 1-2 caps. It's over the top. Plus what is even worse is if Ireland get knocked out Im sure all the same people will be waiting to say it would have been different if they picked "on form" and took Coombes :-)

Blade is an excellent example of a player in a similar position and how many Ireland fans are posting about him?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994496#Comment_120994496

Coombes is a better player playing for the league-winning team. Its not really a good comparison.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994496#Comment_120994496

All the same people?

This is just as hyperbolic as the posts you’re deigning to criticise.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994551#Comment_120994551

Both are not in the squad. Both have nearly the same amount of caps.

Not sure why you think Coombes is a better player. How many players for Connacht won the league and still didnt get into the squad so not sure what relevance that has.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994564#Comment_120994564

The smiley face was the give away that it was a tongue in cheek comment. But hopefully Ireland will win and we won't have it.

Anyway the point was the talk about Coombes is over the top. I have now added to that so I will leave you at it. Whats the odd on coming back in two weeks and you will still be discussing Coombes? 😂

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994753#Comment_120994753

Not sure why you think Coombes is a better player.

Cos he’s performed more consistently at a higher level.

And I think it’s fair to say, when Connacht won the league, it was an inferior competition. The SA teams have added to it greatly.

Anyway the point was the talk about Coombes is over the top.

He was dropped from the squad all of 2 days ago. Disagree by all means, but it’s hardly over the top to be discussing it.

irelandrover

I also think there's discussion as it's a bit of a surprise dropping. No one really expected him to make the final squad but to be dropped before getting a game is unexpected.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994841#Comment_120994841

Why? he hasn't been playing at all for Ireland. Sorry but what do you think the management would see in him playing for a few mins in a game they havne't seen in games for Munster or in training over the last 2 years?

im sure people are trying to position this as an attack on Coombes when it is not, as I said I would expect he will get capped post World Cup.

Im just making the relevant point the guy hasn't been playing for Ireland so I don't see why anyone thinks its a surprise he is been dropped.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994753#Comment_120994753

That Connacht squad was better represented, 7 Connacht players were in the 32 man 2016 summer tour to South Africa. It's likely to be 5 or 6 of the Munster squad from the 2023 URC winning team in France.

Connacht also had a lot more non Irish qualified players; 5 of the starting 15 who won the 2016 URC final were non Irish qualified, 6 of the remaining 10 players traveled to South Africa. Of the Munster team who won the 2023 URC final only one player was non Irish qualified, most likely only 4 of the remaining 14 will travel to France.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994958#Comment_120994958

Because why call him into the squad in the first place if you have already decided he doesn't make the grade. I expected everyone in the squad to get a run during these games.

Coombes doesn't make a 33-man squad for Ireland. But he does make the 42-man squad. So clearly the Irish management rate him. I expected him to get a game to at least maintain his match sharpness in case he is required to go to France.