Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Interested Observer

Going to offer an unpopular opinion but I think we lose all our shape in attack with Crowley at 10. He's very talented and he certainly can do things Byrne can't but I think the team sacrifices for that. I don't think we'd have scored 5 tries against England with Crowley at 10 for example.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042820#Comment_121042820

Disagree tbh. I’ve yet to see the Samoa game, but we showed plenty of shape in attack vs Italy with Crowley at 10.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042607#Comment_121042607

Surely countering a blitz defense is something you'd normally train for, and thus employing a differing tactic when it occurs is just 'going to plan b' rather than playing 'off script' ?.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041190#Comment_121041190

I'd disagree with this.

Frawley isn't a 10. He is a utility back whose primary position is 12 and hr can cover 10 and 15.

He was brought on that tour because Farrell was flirting with the idea of bringing 2 specialist 10s and a utility back who can cover other spots.

It didn't work as Frawley was injured for a lot of the year. Also Crowley spent quiet a bit of time at 12 and 15 this year so he is now the utility back in the squad even if he is a specialist 10.

That doesn't really mean Frawley was picked as a 10.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042820#Comment_121042820

You wouldn't be alone in this view. Crowley takes just that little bit longer to read the opposition & can look indecisive. It's a game of milliseconds at Test level. That being said, it's up to his team mates to react to a change in play and this only comes with familiarity under stress.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042607#Comment_121042607

our proficiency at playing an "L" shaped attack with a flat pass to the edge is perfect for getting around that blitz defense, especially the way we use ghost options in midfield. I would be worried about an organised "up and out" type of defense that France employ.

but all defense's success is dependent how slow they can make our ruck. so far teams have struggled to manage this. again, france are probably best at slowing rucks down by them being patient and organised, often employing a double tackle knowing they have players able to compete at rucks all over the pitch.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042975#Comment_121042975

Yeah - I think taking any level of competition that Crowley has faced to date and trying to map his performance to how it would work against SA/France/NZ is wild speculation.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042485#Comment_121042485

We don’t need to play “off script”. We have a set up at the moment where it’s all about shape and good decision making. Give the ball carrier options and train/empower him to make the right one. We can be unpredictable playing in that shape. That’s exactly how POM got his line break ahead of the Aki try vs England. We provided too many options for England to realistically cover and took the one that they didn’t cover.

Playing “off script” means that nobody, not even your teammates, know what you are doing. Playing off shape means your opposition is kept guessing but your teammates know what’s happening.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043030#Comment_121043030

Am being out for the SA game would be a massive advantage. I'd back us to exploit the inexperience of whomever is drafted in. They used the outside blitz a lot against us in Nov, quite effectively, but there's so much space left if you can get around it. Another area where Hansen and Keenan's value shines, taking on the receiver option for the 2nd wave.

Going to offer an unpopular opinion but I think we lose all our shape in attack with Crowley at 10. He's very talented and he certainly can do things Byrne can't but I think the team sacrifices for that. I don't think we'd have scored 5 tries against England with Crowley at 10 for example.

Agree with this. Bryne executes the attacking shape better than Crowley at the moment. He creates more time on the ball, and has a better understanding of what options to choose.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042975#Comment_121042975

I think it’s fair to say that generally Crowley does have less time on the ball.

But this is because he takes it flatter more often than Byrne. Byrne, takes it deeper and in general, passes earlier.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043030#Comment_121043030

Whats an L shaped attack? As in someone behind the 3 man pod? Ireland struggled badly against SA in Nov because they couldn't get to the edge.

Hence, when Ireland cant get around the blitz that playmaker behind the pod has to make a decision and go "off script" e.g. the pass is not an option so he must decide to run or kick.

It happens in every game of course and that what sets Sexton apart; his decision making ability and then to be able to reorganise and set up the next phases.

Irelands work rate to get back into shape is probably the best in the world and i think that is what also enables them to find the edge or create holes against most teams.

Very difficult against the Springboks if you are constantly getting closed down behind the gainline.

I dont think French have an "up and out" defense. I think its also blitz and narrow with space left out in the 15m e.g. The Edwards defense of work rate, work rate and make dominant two-man tackles over the gainline and set for for next phase.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042946#Comment_121042946

Of course but "everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face"

Plan B or "off script", "heads up rugby" etc is basically run or kick if the blitz has closed off your options.

Essentially the best players are the ones that make the best decisions under that intense pressure and can also execute.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043204#Comment_121043204

Just on the “struggled to get to the edge” bit, the try we scored in open play shows how the shape we are using and the way in which we are developing it can get us to the edge against a blitz defence. Tempt it up and get in behind it and then go to the edge. It’s not about going “off script” at all. Options around the pod, delayed passes and short kicks are all ways to get around that blitz defence. And the first 2 we’ve been working on a lot.

That said, SA are a class outfit and you don’t get a load of chances against teams like that. We may only get 1 or 2. Similar to November. And that isn’t (necessary) a failing of our attack, but rather success for their defence.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043104#Comment_121043104

We saw that so clearly for Hansen's cross field kick from a Byrne pass in the England game. Very difficult to defend against and a perfect foil to keep a rush defence guessing.

Ben Bailey

Prediction from Opta

blackcard

1. Is Tadgh Furlong playing at the same level as he was a couple of seasons ago? If not, is it his scrumaging strength? His pace or stamina around the pitch? His body not at the same level? Not having a consistent run of games?

2. How do people expect our scrum to go against South Africa?

pickarooney

Furlong is miles off his best both in the scrum and around the field.

We will do well to keep the ball in play as much as possible against South Africa as we'll likely give up a lot of penalties from the scrum and if they're going with 6 or 7 forwards on the bench we need to run them around .

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044735#Comment_121044735

I would be amazed if they went with that forward plan in a make or break WC match. They can do it because the likes of FaF can play wing and they have a lot of versatility but it risks undoing some of their defensive coherence if they were to suffer any injuries in the backline.

typhoony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044735#Comment_121044735

Still prefer Furlong at 70% of his best still ahead of the others

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045289#Comment_121045289

Previously I would have thought the same but after Bealhams performances in the 6N I’d be happy to see him start until Furlong proves he’s back to form. May just be a case of getting niggle free minutes into his legs but as we saw in 2007 and 2019 you can’t play players into form in a World Cup.

typhoony

I don't think they become bad players overnight and I'd still wager that Furlong can bring it for the big games. He's proved it in the past which is good enough for me.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044735#Comment_121044735

Furlong demolished Ellis Genge, one of the top looseheads in the world, a couple of weeks ago. And let's not pretend Bealham shot the lights out against Samoa. Our Scrum was absolutely mangled in that game.

pickarooney

Genge might be one of the best looseheads but he's not a great scrummager and has been out of form. I didn't see the England game so if Furlong is coming back into form, that's great.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046668#Comment_121046668

Genge is nothing close to being "the best loose-head in the world" to be honest.

If he is allowed to bore across by referees he does ok , but once he's made to stay square he gets eaten by everyone.

He very good in the loose , but the sum of his game is nowhere near Top 5 standard.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046668#Comment_121046668

I think Stewart may have had a lot to do with that tbh. Although I can’t remember if we had any scrums between Herring coming on and Ryan coming on. At least 1 of those 2 completely changed our scrum when they came in. So I wouldn’t be going to hard on Bealham there.

Captain_Crash

Yeah that’s my view on Genge too, in the loose he’s bang average, will do a job but nothing exceptional (not bad but equally not great), if he’s referred appropriately in the scrum then he’s mince meat to any half decent front row.

I also agree that a 70% furlong is still better than 99% of the worlds props! If he’s fit he plays!

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046625#Comment_121046625

When was Furlong last actually any good? Not just 'at his best' but, good enough that you'd select him on his recent form and not his potential to hopefully bring it on the big occasion?

ionadnapokot

NZ tour last year was the last time I could say Furlong played well.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043916#Comment_121043916

So Crowley couldn't have passed a ball that Hansen then created a try from with that lovely cross field kick?

Maybe you missed the crossfield kick that Crowley executed himself against Samoa that led to the first try?

This is all a load of nonsense. Crowley is perfectly capable of standing back and sling passing the ball like Byrne does so much of the time. The difference is Crowley is also able to cover more ground, take the ball closer to the line and force the defenders to cover him thereby opening space for the players outside him.

When Byrne has the ball, the opposition know what he's going to do next 85% of the time and don't need to pay much attention to him as an attacking threat

Everyone who knows anything about rugby knows that Crowley has a much higher ceiling than Byrne, and is a better player. The only people who say Byrne should still be 2nd behind Sexton are all saying nonsense like 'It's too early for him' (those same people never said the same things about Ntamack when he was playing for France in the last RWC at the age of 20)

We can 'wait for Crowley to mature' while giving minutes to Byrne, who we know is not as good, or we can use him in this RWC and have someone who we know can lead his team to victory under high pressure.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047990#Comment_121047990

If Crowley "led" Munster to the URC win, then we must also acknowledge that Crowley "led" Munster to a round of 16 hammering in the round of 16 Champions Cup to the 8th placed URC team, while Byrne "led" Leinster all the way to the final, hammering Toulouse on the way.

I'm not saying Byrne is better, I'd probably lean towards Crowley at the point. Just thought it needed pointing out.