Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259824#Comment_121259824

The tackle count of the two teams would dispute that I'd say.

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259770#Comment_121259770

That's one thing I'm nervous about in terms of replacing POM. Baird is a great player but he seems very nice.

Like at no point while watching him play have I ever been afraid that he would bite me. And that's an important part of rugby

Clegg

Lancaster and Leinster absolutely adapted their game plan to combat La Rochelle. They became more direct in their phase play and moved towards more dangerous strike moves.

They also focussed even more at clearing out faster and more physically. It got to the point where you'd regularly read accusations online about James Ryan being a dangerous player for his clear outs.

Leinster's loss to La Rochelle last season was more about a failure in exit strategy and not competing at the lineout. Ryan going off after 30 minutes really damaged Leinster's hopes as well. He was playing out of his skin and was comfortably the best player on the pitch before his departure. Jenkins was a massive downgrade.

The most damaging aspect of that loss was that it exposed faults in Leinster's game plan which hadn't been evident in any game up to then.

Clegg

I don't think things are too bad with Ireland. Won't argue that this World Cup cycle was our best chance of making a final, but we've still a very talented core group that will carry us on to 2027.

Porter, Sheehan, Doris, Keenan and Hansen are all in their mid 20's and are some of the best in the world at their position. We've then another set of younger players who could make a huge impact with more development. Jamie Osborne, Joe McCarthy etc. I'm only mentioning Leinster players here because they're the ones I know the most about. And a younger group again with the Grand Slam winning U20's.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259581#Comment_121259581

But you forget that La Rochelle is not French, like full of French players. There's boks, Ozzie 's and even an Irishman. It's just not the same as getting beat by a pure French side.

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259892#Comment_121259892

Ah come on strike moves and the like can't be called tactics. They're a completely different aspect of the game. The game plan had been there since last year, win the kicking battle and then keep the ball. We focussed on all the filler leading up to it with being more "direct" etc etc but the way the exit strategy was handled, which lost us the game the year before was atrocious. We repeated the same mistakes of playing to their fullbacks strengths and not exiting the ball properly.

This isn't hindsight either, I posted the following 7 days before the final in May. The narrative about the 2022 final was that La Rochelle slowed down all our rucks, that's the context for the initial paragraph.

"rewatching the Leinster La Rochelle game from last year there was only 3(!!!!!) Instances of our ball being slowed down by La Rochelle in rucks. We actually were very very effective at ruck time and slowed down their ball more effectively than they slowed ours down. Of the three times they slowed down our ball in their own 22, 2 led to penalties, which ended up as 6 points for us. Where they really got us was in defence where we didn't compete with their linespeed with smart pick and goes around the corner or the occasional one out pass to keep their defence honest. Think the whole offence has been designed to counteract the linespeed this year, we developed the 5m tap-and-go moves to assist ourselves on their line as well, I hope it works out.

Where they really won the game was in the kicking game and in the scrum. We really really struggled at scrum time last year, we were obliterated by Toulouse the round before but still managed the shocking scrum well against Toulouse. Against La Rochelle they attacked on every single attacking scrum and won penalties on most( Barnes should have given us a penalty on one of their advantages for Antonio collapsing). It seems our scrum has improved a lot this year compared to last year, but I hope Porter and Furlong are ready for a long 70-minute shift, because that is what we will need from them. We also had no answer at Maul time at it led to a way too easy finish from them 5 yards out.

Our kicking game was shocking that day as well, I'm not sure if it was the weather that fatigued us or the type of kicks we were doing but our kick chase was AIL level stuff at times. This was especially important to the game because La Rochelle's biggest weakness is attacking from their own half. They are a one out running team and just play territory. They'll take the 3 points against them all day because they're superb at getting territory back after a kick-off. Think this meant our game plan of going for 3 was horrific tactically as we found it impossible to regain territory."

What did we do after the initial 15 minutes, went for **** posts. That was unforgiveable IMO. The clear tactic of maintaining territory and drawing penalty after penalty was the way to go. It might not have mattered anyway but I think Lancaster and Co didn't react to oppositions. It's also why I am always ready to the send the first dig at him.

techdiver

Each World Cup we delude ourselves with thinking we have great squad depth. This world cup has shown that up again. Having the first 15 play all games is not a sign of squad depth and the fact that the loss of Cian Healy has potentially been the difference in us going out of this world cup is stark.

We also need to sort out our scrum in general because whatever we are doing is not working. The key for Ireland over the next cycle is to build proper depth in all areas. Our scrum has been a problem area for a long time now and got showed up on Saturday. We have zero depth in the props which contributes to this problem. Add to that the fact that Furlong is a shadow of his former self and in my opinion won't make the next world cup. You need at least 3 international class props both sides to complete at a world cup. We are good at hooker with both Sheehan and Kelleher both young. Herring will need to be replaced though.

I don't know what has gone wrong with the lineout but it was particularly bad all tournament. The stats don't even tell the full story. I think statistically we only lost 1 lineout on Saturday but so many more were messy and didn't give us a platform. One of our own lineouts led to a New Zealand try a few plays later.

If we had a functioning scrum and lineout on Saturday we easily win that game and that is the frustrating thing.

Podge_irl

We have zero depth at prop because there are not enough good enough props in Ireland. There is nothing the Ireland coach can do about that.

Clegg

I actually don't think our scrum is that much of an issue. Was listening to the Demented Mole podcast this week and they made the point that the penalties we conceded where when we attacked the New Zealand put in rather than soaking the pressure.

It was a tactic to try and disrupt their attacking platform. It obviously didn't work, but I don't think the scrum is a major area of concern either. Functioned well enough against a South African side that was always going to out to try and dominate. Even if we did concede a few penalties we weren't completely dominated either.

We clearly made the decision years ago to map our strategy round an athletic front 5 that could play a minimum of 60 minutes every game. We prioritised athleticism and handling skills above destructive scrummaging. It was the right call, I think. Especially because we don't have a Malherbe type of destructive scrummager yo begin with anyway.

AdamD

We consistently concede more scrum penalties than we win against the top sides, not sure how that can be viewed as anything other than an issue.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263291#Comment_121263291

I suppose it's not an issue until it is an issue.

I remember Munster being destroyed at scrum time in an away game, I think we conceded two penalty tries off the scrum, we won the game so was it an issue.

Tommysocks11

That's talking crap, yes our front 5 are more athletic but they need to be better at the basics of scrummaging, 3 penalties conceded by porter last week was criminal, our line out very poor all tournament too and when our set pieces are so bad u are fighting an uphill battle straight away

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263469#Comment_121263469

northampton away in the heineken cup, 2012 i think, absolutely hockeyed them even though the scrum was in tatters. zebo got a hat trick

AbusesToilets

How much of our issues at scrum are simply due to Porter's terrible technique? It's been what, 3 years? And he still hasn't corrected some very basic issues. Bind too short, elbow down, outside shoulder turning in and pulling his opponent's jersey down.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264328#Comment_121264328

He’s not had a straight forward path position wise. Been back at LH for 2 years (was selected in the 2021 Lions squad as a TH). Think he switched to TH from LH in 2018 or thereabouts having payed underage rugby at LH. I suspect we’ll see him moved back to TH if we can bring a decent LH through.

Dubinusa

At loose head there's Boyle, athletic with a good motor. He's put on some weight and his technique at scrum is very sound. He just needs experience. There's also Milne! He missed an entire season through injury, so his development isn't where it should be. Paddy McCarthy looks a savage. Still very young. I think Loughman could cement his place this year, if he continues his Munster form from last season. He's certainly big enough.

Tight head is probably a bigger problem. Furlong looking spent, Bealham is 32 and that leaves O'Toole. Coming up are Wilson from Ulster. I think he is the best prospect. There's also McGuire and Illo. I think Aungier could be an option. He's improved quite a bit over the last 2 seasons.

4 years is a long time to develop players.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264460#Comment_121264460

Talking about Boyle in an irish context is way too soon. Its his first start in a pro game ffs. His technipue is grand but not superb.

I dont think Furlong is spent at all. more he badly needs a rest/break which is very different.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264516#Comment_121264516

How much more of a rest could he get? He's had his minutes managed like everyone else, not like he's playing a rake of URC games.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264516#Comment_121264516

Just my opinion, LO. I have hopes for this lad. I know he'll struggle, he'll probably be minced this week. He's got time to learn and this week's environment will be a testing one. I hope he does really well.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264516#Comment_121264516

He's been 'needing a break' since 2021. He's simply past it. We'll plough on with him because we have nothing else in the pipeline but moving Porter back to LH has been a disaster. He 'just needs time to adjust' since 2021 as well.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265251#Comment_121265251

The last 2 years with Porter at LH has been a disaster? In what sense?

pickarooney

I'm the sense that he still hasn't learn to scrummage and gets penalised all the time.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259664#Comment_121259664

It is true because Leinster did lose, and were dominated by LAR apart from the opening 15 minutes when Leinster scored off set pieces.

Anyway, We can play counter factual all day but the reality is Leinster have a new head coach who will almost certainly bring some changes to the Leinster playstyle with him. This will have knock on effects for Ireland.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264460#Comment_121264460

Not sure I would say Furlong is spent. He was playing well in the World Cup and even in the NZ game when he clearly had a niggle. Bealham has done well but is older than Furlong which was a surprise to me, Furlong could well play into the next WC but he won't be dancing around Scottish players. Age catch's up with everyone.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265946#Comment_121265946

Penalised all the time is hyperbolic. I’d agree it’s not the strongest part of his game, but there’s a degree of recency bias going on as our scrums didn’t go well against NZ. The Irish scrum has generally held up well. If he was penalised all the time at scrums, Leinster and Ireland wouldn’t have won many of the games he started in over the last 2 years as usually no scrum means no win.

Scrums are often at the mercy of the referee’s interpretation. Who remembers Genge destroying Furlong according to Raynal in 2022? In reality, on another day Genge would have been blown off the pitch for driving across. I can’t think of too many other days over the last 2 years where our scrum was a liability?

The rebirth of this Irish team since 2021 coincided with Porter’s switch to LH. The man is regularly going 70mins+ into games due to the lack of cover. His move has not been a disaster unless you think we should have been starting Healy, Kilcoyne or Loughman over the last 2 years? Or can you name an alternative option who could have packed down at LH to win a GS, NZ tour and contribute to a 17 match unbeaten run?

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263254#Comment_121263254

Just saw some stats that we were 2nd last in Scrum win % in the competition with 76.9% with only Georgia behind us at 76%. I don't think the scrum was that bad in the tournament or 6 nations, but I definitely think it's a weakness and I don't think we have many props in the pipeline who will help that unfortunately.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266498#Comment_121266498

How the hell does a team famous for its scrum and producing props in Georgia have the worst scrum win percentage in the competition 😂

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266118#Comment_121266118

13 penalties in the 6N is pretty much all the time, as far as I'm concerned.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266659#Comment_121266659

I think you’ll find they weren’t all scrum penalties. His discipline issues in open play were talked about around the time which in general he seems to have tightened up on although he did give away the first penalty against NZ in open play. That’s not a positional issue.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266118#Comment_121266118

He has terrible technique, which means he's always vulnerable to a ref blowing him up like Barnes.