Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306186#Comment_121306186

I agree, winning the world cup is the top prize in rugby. We only get one chance every 4 years, and realistically there are huge risks each time with game plan selection, weather, injuries, form, the draw, the schedule, as well as the opposition. We may not get as good a chance for a while with all the factors that go into it. It's part of the journey to be annoyed for now, as long as it doesn't end up dragging all the fun out of the next part of the journey.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306348#Comment_121306348

And yet it was quite literally a bounce of a ball (Barrett's chip) and a thigh that made the difference.

Why do you think it was this that made the difference and not, for example, Sexton missing a very routine and easy kick that forced us to have to play for a try at the end?

Why do you think that kick was the difference rather than Kelleher failing to score or even pass to a player in a better position to score, and then Caelan Doris dropping the subsequent drop out, a shift from scoring a try to NZ having a scrum on half way?

Why do you think Conor Murray gifting them a penalty did not contribute to our loss?

If Ireland had eradicated their own stupid and basic mistakes from that game they'd have won it. We can waffle on about "fine margins" or whatever if it makes us all feel better, but that's the simple reality.

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

The ball did literally bounce over Dan Sheehan's head within a few metres of the try line.

Not saying that it was the only issue, but even with us playing as we did, a pointy ball bouncing differently could have been enough for us to win.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306376#Comment_121306376

How many similar mistakes would NZ point to, had they lost? Aki catching a bad pass and waltzing through 5 tackles. Our maul steamrolling through them over the line twice. Us winning a turnover in our 22 and slicing through them with ease to their 5m line, only for a knock on. Both teams made a lot of errors under pressure, not sure why you want to paint it as just Ireland struggling.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306392#Comment_121306392

What mistakes of similar significance do you think they made?

Sexton's missed penalty and Doris dropping the ball were monumental mistakes. Massive moments in the game, both huge boosts for NZ.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306414#Comment_121306414

Aki's try was a massive mistake. Mo'unga missed a kick himself. They turned over ball in our 22 on a few occasions. Those are normal things that happen in games.

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306376#Comment_121306376

But surely that's the point right? You've pointed to 4 single instances. Then the bounce for Beauden Barrett, the bounce over Sheehan's head and POM losing an aerial battle for a crossfield kick on the try line.

We could have done nothing differently in 6 of those and gotten a win. That's how fine the margins are.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306434#Comment_121306434

Not really comparable in any way.

Missed kicks happen but Sexton's kick was easy, it was straightforward. Big moment in the game, it should have been scored and Ireland wouldn't have had to chase a try at the end. I don't think Jack Crowley would get off so lightly if he was the one who had missed it.

Turnovers happen, but again, Doris' catch was routine. Kelleher not getting that ball down was just bad play. Again, no real excuse for this, and Ireland went from scoring a try at a key moment, to losing possession on half way. This was probably the moment in the game when it became clear we were in huge trouble and didn't look likely to turn the game around.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306479#Comment_121306479

No, the point is this "fine margins" stuff is nonsense.

People keep talking as if Ireland put in a performance that resembled what they've shown the past 18 months and were just beaten by a better team on the day. This is not what happened.

Ireland lost that game because the performance was littered with mistakes that are atypical of this Ireland team, some of which were very poor errors at key moments of the game. These were not as a result of NZ playing well, they were entirely on us making a mess of the basics.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306504#Comment_121306504

It's literally not nonsense, rather it's a fundamental aspect of elite sports. Asante Samuel makes a fairly routine catch for an INT, Eli Manning gets sacked, Tyree doesn't manage to pin a ball against his helmet one handed, Randy Moss manages to snag a ball that brushes his finger tips. Any of those things happen and the Patriots go undefeated.

There were multiple incidences, as laid out above, that could've gone for us and we win the game. Instead NZ got lucky with the bounce of Barrett's kick, Barnes didn't call a crooked throw for Jordan's try. Small margins all around.

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306504#Comment_121306504

But we made all of those crucial errors and still the margin was the ball bouncing for Barrett and not for Sheehan.

Nobody is happy about the mistakes and it clearly wasn't a great performance. But playing as we did, the margin could easily have been overcome by s single moment of luck

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305721#Comment_121305721

Some people continue to point this out as if to say it's god's will and that luck or some sort of mysticism is what separates teams at the top, rather than mentality, coaching, skill, composure and tactics. For me it is definitely the latter rather than the former, and losing crucial matches by tiny margins is not just fate. This time SA came in as champions, having barely achieved their last WC, and again consistently come out on top in those matches with the tiniest margins imaginable separating them from the losers. This is not an accident, they are doing something to produce those fine margins that is what separates them from the others. We have become better at it, beating France in France with more consistency, winning the series in NZ, but we as a rugby nation are also still sometimes lacking in those fine increments that get us over the line, Leinster in Europe for 6 of last ten years, and Ireland at the World Cup when it comes to knockouts. Something is missing.

Dubinusa

Doris has a habit of feckin crap up at the wrong time. He's a very good player but, he's really prone to bone head errors.

Sexton missed a fairly decent opportunity of a peno. He'll regret that for the rest of his life.

Ireland just weren't good enough. We'll bounce back. So much talent coming through. I'd say we're in a better position than the kiwis, as far as young talent goes.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306323#Comment_121306323

To win it? yeah, maybe not.

I think, for good or ill, we need to break our duck in the QF. So for me an easy draw in the QF is far more important than anything else.

dublin49

the experts on here remind me of a colleague who when receiving sales data for the month praised his team for a job well done in his sales report,when subsequently he was told the numbers were wrong and not as good he rewrote report pointing out the shortcomings of the salesteam's performance.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306916#Comment_121306916

In other words he changed his opinion in light of new evidence? Generally that would indicate someone who is doing things well. The point you make here proves the point you don't think you are making, which is that many many posters are incapable of recognising short comings in the team and their preparation in light of actual results.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307034#Comment_121307034

To be honest, I don't think the shortcomings are that vast. But we shouldn't pretend they don't exist, or try make out like we lost due to some external mysterious force that decided we were going to be close but not close enough.

The issue is purely mentality. Skills, depth etc, we are there. We didn't have the composure to deal with the occasion and it led to rudimentary mistakes. Arguably you can't even fault the coaches, since experience of winning WC knockout games is very sparse in the IRFU setup (Mike Catt 20 years ago being the only one) there isn't really much knowledge there to pass along.

Nienaber is joining Leinster, if he's still employed by the IRFU in 4 years time then the IRFU should be leaning heavily on him to help us break this duck.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307351#Comment_121307351

Yeah, watching Murray hang off a player heading for a high ball to concede a penalty was seeing a guy with nearly 15 years test experience **** his pants totally unnecessarily because the pressure got to him. Johnny missing his penalty was the very same, there were numerous other examples of basic skills and discipline going out the window BECAUSE it was a 1/4 final. When your elite players are making those kinds of mistakes in the most intense games when all the marbles are on the table, that's simply a lack of mental composure. SA were not making those kinds of mistakes, NZ made a few and lost.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307034#Comment_121307034

It indicates a manager who hasn't a clue what's going on with his team and is only there to take the credit or apportion the blame based on the figures they produce. Utterly useless, in other words

Musicrules

I think some people have a problem with the fact that the pressure got to some players because they can't stand the whole choking in the quarter final talk. It is very uncomfortable, hard to face up to but it is real. An example from another sport would be Mayo. Lots of people from that county hate the narrative around their awful All Ireland final record and not being able to win one. They could list off excuses, talk about how close they've come, talk about the bounce of a ball or whatever else you're having but the fact is that they struggle mentally to get over the line in All Ireland finals.

Ireland struggle mentally to get over the quarter final hurdle. You can't solve an issue without admitting that there's an issue first of all. You don't have to get hammered for it to be a choke. Look how close Mayo have come. They find a way to lose. Ireland find a way to lose in World Cup quarter finals. Sexton doesn't miss a kick like he did if he wasn't affected by the pressure. It got to him, it got to Doris, these were obvious examples but the less obvious examples would be where players were taking the safe pass, not taking risks, not taking the right option, keeping it tight because they were tight.

We will be in the same position in 4 years if the denial of this issue is the option taken by those in charge.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308101#Comment_121308101

You can make moral judgements about some hypothetical manager, most managers aren't very good, etc. But the underlying point that was being made is that everything is all fine and well until results go again the team, and then there is criticism. So people who previously praised the team are now criticising the team just because new information emerges! I do not see what the problem is here, while we were doing well everyone is happy, now that we are doing badly everyone is pissed off. ITS SPORT, THIS IS WAHT HAPPENS. A manger who praises or apportions blame based on results, what is the world coming to?

pickarooney

A manager had to accept the blame first and foremost, it's his/her job to get the team to perform. The very basics of management are that you live and die by what the team produces

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308312#Comment_121308312

Many managers are dicks but Im glad you know what a good manager is, maybe you have some experience. But let's recap here because people have been sidetracked by philosophising about managers who take credit and not criticism...the original point that brought this up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306916#Comment_121306916

This is, I think, intended as a criticism of posters who may have previously praised the team but who now criticise the team, because there is new information. The meaning of the new information is disputed so failing to get past NZ in the 1/4 means either, A) we aren't as good as we thought we were and the loss resulted from a loss of composure because of the pressure or B) it's just the bounce of a ball and SA are consistently luckier than Ireland who would have won if we had more luck but alas, fate. The manager analogy above supports A, my saying that the manager changed his mind because of new information (which would be the performance against NZ) and changing your mind because you become aware of new information is not unfair, its actually how things are supposed to work.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306504#Comment_121306504

I agree with this and would add on we also got majorly off system in the game.

i think we are a try better than NZ and we pretty majorly under performed.

theVersatile

Humphreys official as Nucifora's replacement

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1719674621278945486?t=jbDArHEOe6acolSy-brSTQ&s=19

Clegg

David Humphreys will be the new IRFU Performance Director after David Nucifora leaves.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1719674621278945486?t=C9kI6slBwQ_ofCHIYpc5Lw&s=09

theVersatile

World Cup failure and the recent fall of the Irish women's team will be the sole blots on his tenure. You can't deny where he's taken the IRFU in the last five years especially.

Humphreys will have big shoes to fill in continuing the success of the men's team, getting the Women's XV team up to their former standard, and promoting equality of resource sharing around the province (especially in the West and North, where the relevant provinces have had the short end of the stick comparatively).

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306376#Comment_121306376

The narrative here:

Johnny Sexton, highest points scorer in the history of the six nations, highest points scorer ever for Ireland - misses a kick and you call it a stupid and basic mistake. As if he wasnt concentrating or something. It wasnt basic and it wasnt stupid. He was under huge pressure taking it, after 60 minutes of full on rugby. They arent robots.

How can you ever say to anyone, dont make any mistakes. Now thats being stupid.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309772#Comment_121309772

Sexton's experience is all the more reason why it was such a terrible miss. Not sure why you would ever think the opposite to be true, that's a bizarre take.

Maybe he wasn't concentrating, maybe he was panicking, whatever, it doesn't matter the reason, it was a kick he absolutely should have made and the consequences of his miss were substantial.

Nobody said don't make mistakes, but as we've learnt, if you want to win these knockout games you have to at least not make really, really basic ones.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309711#Comment_121309711

Not sure how I feel about it but let's hope he's successful and I wish him the very best in his new role.