Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

I think they were great players and hence they got games for Ireland. The same as Ntamack was a great player and got games for France at a young age. The fact that he had a lot of games for Toulouse was an added bonus.

I don't think players will become great because you throw them into international rugby at a young age.

Whatever about BOD and Ryan hard to see an N'tamack or any other 10 ever getting developed in Ireland to the same extent due to 4 teams and poor quality league.

irelandrover

glasso wrote: »

Whatever about BOD and Ryan hard to see an N'tamack or any other 10 ever getting developed in Ireland to the same extent due to 4 teams and poor quality league.

Carberry played at 21 and Jackson at 22. Not quite as young as Ntamack but i'd say not a lot of countries in the world have a 19 year old as outhalf.

UAEguy2020

irelandrover wrote: »

Carberry played at 21 and Jackson at 22. Not quite as young as Ntamack but i'd say not a lot of countries in the world have a 19 year old as outhalf.

Players like Ntamack are going to come through regardless of the league they are in, you can coach what he does.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

Carberry played at 21 and Jackson at 22. Not quite as young as Ntamack but i'd say not a lot of countries in the world have a 19 year old as outhalf.

N'tamack has 18 caps for France at 21 though, not his first cap.

They simply made a conscious decision to cap him and he got development at Toulouse in a decent league.

Not going to ever happen here the way it is currently with the poor pro 14 and shortage of opportunities.

Downlinz

molloyjh wrote: »

It was a bit of a hatchet job. For the first try he is saying that as last man, Lowe should be hitting the second last attacker. For the second try he is saying that as the second last man he should be hitting the second last attacker. He doesn't reference Hendersons clear mistake (as the second last man) that leaves the space open for the first try, but he does reference Lowes clear mistake (as the second last man) that leaves the space for the second try. There are fundamental contradictions in the points that he is making.

We've already agreed that for the second try Lowe made a massive mistake and that's on him. But for the first he was put in a no win situation by Henderson and while he could have made a better decision, the damage was already done by the hole that Henderson left. If Wales didn't score there then North would have done something very, very wrong. But instead of acknowledging that, he just points the finger entirely at Lowe. He blames Lowe for causing a hole in one try and ignores the very same mistake Henderson made in creating the hole for the other.

Lowe is well known as a shocking defender and was seen by Wales as our key weakness as they kept kicking to him all day. If you're going to ignore who the opposition are targeting, what your eyes are showing you and the verdict of one of the top coaches in the game at the moment then I think you simply don't want to accept it.

irelandrover

glasso wrote: »

N'tamack has 18 caps for France at 21 though, not his first cap.

They simply made a conscious decision to cap him and he got development at Toulouse in a decent league.

Not going to ever happen here the way it is currently with the poor pro 14 and shortage of opportunities.

I think if a youngster of his quality came through in Ireland he would be first choice at Connacht, Munster or Ulster, or a clear second choice at Leinster, and due to Sextons injury record would have a lot of starts.

Former Former Former

glasso wrote: »

Whatever about BOD and Ryan hard to see an N'tamack or any other 10 ever getting developed in Ireland to the same extent due to 4 teams and poor quality league.

Paddy Jackson started a European Cup final at the age of 20

Rugby4568

Former Former Former wrote: »

Paddy Jackson started a European Cup final at the age of 20

I miss Paddy Jackson. I wish he never sent those WhatsApp messages

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

I think if a youngster of his quality came through in Ireland he would be first choice at Connacht, Munster or Ulster, or a clear second choice at Leinster, and due to Sextons injury record would have a lot of starts.

Leaving out Leinster because there is a decent youngster there who hasn't even gotten 1 European game there?

N'tamack has as many international caps as Byrne has bore 14 games and is younger (slightly)

10's need games of a suitable intensity and all the factors are against them getting that in Ireland

- poor league where many games have no intensity

- only 4 teams

- tendency in Ireland to drag the arse out of older 10's (or stick with middling standard ones) and not play young ones

KrustyUCC

Starting Burns after his performance last week ... Farrell is having a laugh

Burns is lucky to be in the 23 not to mind starting

Best of luck to Ruddock

He's a player who always does well for Leinster but it's a big step up for him

bayern

glasso wrote: »

Leaving out Leinster because there is a decent youngster there who hasn't even gotten 1 European game there?

N'tamack has as many international caps as Byrne has bore 14 games and is younger (slightly)

10's need games of a suitable intensity and all the factors are against them getting that in Ireland

- poor league where many games have no intensity

- only 4 teams

- tendency in Ireland to drag the arse out of older 10's (or stick with middling standard ones) and not play young ones

He'd have more caps for Leinster if it wasn't for injury, that's fairly simple.

Also N'tamack was in a pro setup from a younger age, you can't compare them just because they are the same age.

kilns

Hopefully Burns goes well this weekend, the level of abuse thrown at him is ridiculous

And hopefully the scrum halves go well too so that we may be seeing the last of Murray until he returns to his form of a few years ago (perhaps he never will)

Earls is lucky to get picked but I guess they didn't want to make wholesale changes to the back line

Ruddock definitely deserves his chance and will not let the side down at all. In my opinion a much better 6 than O'mahoney in any case

Rugby4568

Anyone know how to send a video from your camera roll in here? It’s just says invalid file when I try and upload it.

crisco10

Former Former Former wrote: »

Paddy Jackson started a European Cup final at the age of 20

And Carbery was starting the euro qf via Wasps at 21.

I think the real issue here is that for various reasons, 2 top 10's who would have been in line to succeed Sexton have fallen away.

Particularly Jackson, when he lead us through that SA away series in 2016, it was clear that in the medium term Sexton had some competition coming through.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

He'd have more caps for Leinster if it wasn't for injury, that's fairly simple.

Also N'tamack was in a pro setup from a younger age, you can't compare them just because they are the same age.

yes - pro setup- yet another reason that it would never happen in Ireland.

Jallibert was also capped for France at 19 and now with 9 caps is ready for anything and has shown it.

So it's not all down to N'tamack being a once-in-a-generation talent or anything.

The conditions are all against a young 10 getting the development opportunities and eventual selection and what you really want - established maturity - here.

bayern

Harry Byrne wasn't ready to play 10 for Ireland at 19.

Rugby4568

crisco10 wrote: »

And Carbery was starting the euro qf via Wasps at 21.

I think the real issue here is that for various reasons, 2 top 10's who would have been in line to succeed Sexton have fallen away.

Particularly Jackson, when he lead us through that SA away series in 2016, it was clear that in the medium term Sexton had some competition coming through.

I get upset every time someone mentions Jackson. I just miss him so much. He was the player to replace Sexton. He would have been starting today.

Scratchly

aloooof wrote: »

Ah c'mon... how can it be a hatchet job when Lowe clearly made defensive mistakes last weekend? And the Zebo line was a throwaway at the very end of the article as they played them last week.

Because he glossed over all the other mistakes made by other players and put the blame firmly on one player for two tries. The ghost attacker stuff is nonsense. Lowe had players inside him which should have been covering North. Murray gifted them the ball to start that play and Henderson was the one who left that gap and left Lowe facing two players. Halfpenny wasn't a phantom attacker he was on the overlap. If Lowe came in on North then North offloads and Halfpenny is in. So Lowe trusted his inside cover to try cover the offload. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't because he was 1 on 2 against North and Halfpenny. It's nonesense to say Lowe was the one who caused that try.

The Zebo line shows how biased ROG is. Basically ignores the mountains of mistakes of munster players, puts it all on Lowe, claims he isn't international standard then adds in a comment about his Munster pal who walked out on the international team because he was too lazy to work to Schmidts standards.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

Harry Byrne wasn't ready to play 10 for Ireland at 19.

exactly because he could never be ready even if he had the talent

- poor league (pro setup vs schools in France another probable factor)

- 4 places - not going to get the game time

- paternalistic approach to 10's in Ireland in general

aloooof

glasso wrote: »

N'tamack has 18 caps for France at 21 though, not his first cap.

They simply made a conscious decision to cap him and he got development at Toulouse in a decent league.

Not going to ever happen here the way it is currently with the poor pro 14 and shortage of opportunities.

One other point to mention is that France were starting from a much lower base when they started to cap him. They had much more justification to do so.

He got his first 6 Nations start in 2019, I think. Their finishing places in reverse-chronological order before then were 4th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 6th, 4th.

If we had that sustained level of under-performance, I've no doubt we'd be much more willing to back youth as well.

Rugby4568

glasso wrote: »

exactly because he could never be ready even if he had the talent

- poor league (pro setup vs schools in France another probable factor)

- 4 places - not going to get the game time

- paternalistic approach to 10's in Ireland in general

It’s Leo Cullens fault because he doesn’t start Harry Byrne in European cup games. He should back the young players.

bayern

Rugby4568 wrote: »

It’s Leo Cullens fault because he doesn’t start Harry Byrne in European cup games. He should back the young players.

You realize Byrne was named to start in europe but got injured?

irelandrover

glasso wrote: »

exactly because he could never be ready even if he had the talent

- poor league (pro setup vs schools in France another probable factor)

- 4 places - not going to get the game time

- paternalistic approach to 10's in Ireland in general

Who is being blocked by this?
If Harry Byrne was good enough he would be ahead of his brother. And he would have started a lot of Heineken cup games over the last 2 years.

Rugby4568

Rugby4568 wrote: »

It’s Leo Cullens fault because he doesn’t start Harry Byrne in European cup games. He should back the young players.

that's where the paternalistic approach / attitude comes in

aloooof

Scratchly wrote: »

Because he glossed over all the other mistakes made by other players and put the blame firmly on one player for two tries. The ghost attacker stuff is nonsense. Lowe had players inside him which should have been covering North. Murray gifted them the ball to start that play and Henderson was the one who left that gap and left Lowe facing two players. Halfpenny wasn't a phantom attacker he was on the overlap. If Lowe came in on North then North offloads and Halfpenny is in. So Lowe trusted his inside cover to try cover the offload. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't because he was 1 on 2 against North and Halfpenny. It's nonesense to say Lowe was the one who caused that try.

The Zebo line shows how biased ROG is. Basically ignores the mountains of mistakes of munster players, puts it all on Lowe, claims he isn't international standard then adds in a comment about his Munster pal who walked out on the international team because he was too lazy to work to Schmidts standards.

You're criticising him for glossing over mistakes and fail to mention Ringrose at all. That's as one-eyed as what you're accusing ROG of being.

In any case, I'll leave it there, see zero value in continuing this.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

One other point to mention is that France were starting from a much lower base when they started to cap him. They had much more justification to do so.

He got his first 6 Nations start in 2019, I think. Their finishing places in reverse-chronological order before then were 4th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 6th, 4th.

If we had that sustained level of under-performance, I've no doubt we'd be much more willing to back youth as well.

that's reaching.

Rugby4568

bayern wrote: »

You realize Byrne was named to start in europe but got injured?

Fair enough actually. But he should start 10 next time even if Sexton is fit.

Must love hardship

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

bayern

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

Herring not a project player.

irelandrover

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

Herring and Burns arent project players