Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa

It is noticeable over the last decade or so that some lads have come out of non traditional ares. Places like West Cork, Wexford and Offaly. There's scope for improvement of course.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317159#Comment_121317159

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317178#Comment_121317178

Sorry! Someone mentioned him. I would guess he'd be really good for Ulster.

JGP was drafted in while being a sub. JOB also.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317153#Comment_121317153

Certainly, a big push to get into state secondary schools and Catholic grammar schools. And club underage.

My youngest son plays for a club - came the whole way through minus. He's just gone to a school where rugby would be a sport far behind football, hockey. So he currently plays for both his school and still plays for his club. In a few years, he will have to chose between them.

A number of his old teammates have just gone to Catholic grammar schools that don't offer rugby. A number of them are still going to the club, but some are switching to GAA because it's prioritised in their school. I imagine a number of those currently still coming to the club will fall away as they want to play sports with their mates at school. If we could increase interest in those Catholic schools, or fund the underage in the club better, numbers would start to tell.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317186#Comment_121317186

Here's hoping.

There are issues we can't do anything about - the lure of universities across the water is a big, big one. Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool. Don't know how we counter that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317044#Comment_121317044

If it happens, fine. But there is nothing to suggest that another province will beat Toulouse etc, even with a couple of Leinster player.

I'm not at all in favour of as much movement as seems to be being suggested in this thread, but for the record, I don't think this is true.

Munster came within a score of Toulouse twice last season. Ulster came within a point of them over 2 games the season before.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316966#Comment_121316966

If we really wanted fairness, wouldn't it make sense for each Province to get the same salary budget, say?

To point being, it's geared towards Ireland.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317159#Comment_121317159

It would probably affect guys outside Deegan, Connors. I guess osborne wouldn’t have been an early call up. Penny. Not sure about world cup squad.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317137#Comment_121317137

i have to agree, im not sure of how eligibility for urc/europe works at this stage but it would be great if a player(s) could go to another province on load but with the provision that they would come back straight away if needed due to injury. i doubt that would work with competition rules though

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317022#Comment_121317022

i dont disagree with your point about players having to move if thats the option theyre given, it wouldnt exactly be the end of the world. having said that, alot of younger players would be combining studying with playing so i would think it could potentially cause problems with that

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317214#Comment_121317214

Schools should be used to as places to start kids off playing with aim to move them into clubs for longer term.

I never had to choose between club and school down in Munster. we were able to play both. now in the school we were in the lowest grade and we didnt train every week just occasionally but we only played in the cup competition we were graded in. we played 3/4 games

I dont think numbers will necesarily fall away because the kids arent playing with a school team.

funding age grade in clubs is key but how do you use the funding?

ulsteru20s

I honestly don’t think this is a problem. To my eyes, the academies outside leinster are pretty good right now.

I also personally don’t believe in the unending leinster talent engine. I think it will fluctuate up and down.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317248#Comment_121317248

That would be fairness alright.

Also rotating the international games evenly amongst the provinces.

Of course that would be crazy and not good for finances and hence ireland, but at least it would be fair.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317062#Comment_121317062

This is a ridiculous point. If the IRFU were to choose they could distribute kids at academy level, there are universities in all the places where provinces are based. The IRFU already subsidises the academies and they should properly be recognised as Irish rugby academies, etc. Anyway, the objective is to improve the standard of rugby throughout the country, having a top heavy Leinster side for the last ten years hasn't delivered. Back to the drawing board.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317273#Comment_121317273

See the answer to Dub above, there are great schools in all the relevant cities. This comes down to making big choices about development, no-one has to play rugby and the IRFU is not set up to create opportunities to go pro for every kid who wants to. It's there to promote and develop the game nationally. A cold hard look at results suggests we need to do better, so how do we do that?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317316#Comment_121317316

Honestly, that's getting beyond my expertise. Better coaching is an easy but realistic answer.

Ulster has made serious efforts to move outside it's typical heartland. A consistent flow of money dedicated to outreach would be ideal.

ulsteru20s

This isn’t a new idea but a school, club and the irfu could split funding for a coach, or facilities or whatever.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317349#Comment_121317349

I agree, and am not advocating for it at all. Just making the point that if one is going to suggest fairness, they would have to take the rough with the smooth that comes with that across the board.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316915#Comment_121316915

I also want to point out that setting a goal of 2 or more ProWhatever titles was a laughable goal and I can only guess it's in there so they had at least 1 goal that they knew they had absolutely no chance whatsoever of missing.

Tommysocks11

At least Barnes is retired, never seemed to favour us in games and pinged porter 3 times v new Zealand which cost us the game

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317388#Comment_121317388

And yet there's multiple Leinster players at each province. If the union could chose, why don't they. Who's to say a lad wants to move? Forcing requirements on lads to move could backfire. What's the goal here, does it improve Ireland if Jack Boyle goes to Ulster and an Ulster lad misses out on an academy position. So all the provinces are Leinster heavy and a scarcity of local players.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317400#Comment_121317400

A cold hard look would tell all, that Leinster are the main team that has produced talent for a decade. That's the truth. Munster are doing better now. Move all the Leinster prospects. I'm all for it if we win a world cup.

50HX

I would be in favour of a change allowing players playing abroad to be eligible for the national team,

It would give players that can't break into the club 23 a chance of possibly playing abroad, develop their game at a higher standard & ultimately improve.

I think the whole centrally contracted players being minute managed to the degree that they are needs to be looked at as well

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317887#Comment_121317887

I don't think that's accurate. Dublin schools have produce all the talent and Leinster has benefited from it, purely an accident of location. These players are literally falling into Leinster's lap. If limerick had been the business, legal and administrative HQ of Ireland Inc for the last 150 years we'd be talking about Munster producing the assembly line of Irish players. The schools have a massive legacy of rugby to build on and, for some reason, many of them have decided to get into an arms race with each other for Senior and Junior Cups, resulting in fantastic levels of resources being poured into rugby programs. Provincial fandom really does blind even the smartest rugby fans to some of the underlying forces in the Irish game. Taking the best and most motivated 18 year olds coming out of the Dublin school system and turning them into pros is not rocket science, Leinster do it well but with the resources that have it would be hard not to.

The question is whether some of the players with a few appearances, or those who fall out of favour, are potential internationals who just aren't getting the development opportunities at Leinster. Take a guy like Will Conors (setting aside his injuries), would he be getting more opportunities tomolay somewhere else and be in the running for caps? He was a phenomenal prospect when he came onto the Irish scene. There are several instances with Farrell where a guy not getting picked at Leinster turns into a major asset with different coaching and opportunities. Leinster coaches have the cream of the crop and don't use all of them in ways they might be used elsewhere. AND they're not winning anything (in Europe) with them. Would Leinster be less successful if they had fewer of these players? Would the other provinces (and Ireland) be more successful with greater access to them? Those are the questions the IRFU should ask.

phog

Nucifora is in the job since the summer of 2014, I think it's fair to say that we have a better Irish Team though we still haven't won a RWC knockout game.

I'm not sure the provinces are much better than when he took over, Connacht currently in a better position, Ulster & Munster so so and Leinster are an outlier and would possibly be there without him.

The women's team is an unmitigated disaster and the pro contracts for the womens senior team seems to a very Dublin based squad. Who says you can't force someone to move province?

It will be interesting to see the stamp Humphreys brings to his role

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318067#Comment_121318067

Humphreys could be pretty ruthless. Let's not forget he moved Brian McLaughlin on as Ulster coach after the 2012 HEC final, and in fairness his replacement Mark Anscombe took things to the next level in 2013 when they probably should have won a trophy. The point being he has shown he isn't afraid to make tough decisions popular or not...similar to David Nucifora.

bilston

One issue facing Humphreys and the IRFU is what to do with Andy Farrell. I think his contract runs out in 2025, he is very likely to be Lions coach in 2025 which means he would probably take a sabbatical for at least the 2025 6Ns, if not the whole 24/25 season.

I assume the IRFU, at this stage anyway, would want to extend Farrell to 2027.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317875#Comment_121317875

In that particular case… maybe. He would play more at ulster prob and the depth chart is stacked at LHP for leinster.

I think the ideal situation is most guys stay at leinster. My preference is if guys leave leinster it would be at academy induction. I think that’s starting to become more common, and senior moves less common. I like that as guys are in the new culture early rather than going at 27 and not super happy to. If someone like ronan foxe worked out for munster for example, its doubtful he’s consider himself a ‘leinster exile’. He would have played his entire pro career at munster.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318040#Comment_121318040

That's all true. And if we were to get better as a rugby nation, so be it.

One aside to this is provincial identity. Does having teams flush with Leinster schools products benifit provincial identity or tribalism?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318167#Comment_121318167

I'm not sure Conway is diluting the culchie authenticity of Limerick anymore than Henshaw or Doris or Tadgh are turning the Leinster crowd into Irish people.

Neil3030

Nah sure Tadhg Beirne is very much a fan favourite, same for Conway.

Not really responding to any specific point, but just want to note that the biggest demographic shift in Munster has involved Limerick (and specifically graduates of St. Munchin's). I think 5 players in the 2008 Heino final went to Munchin's compared to only... I think.. 1 (Murray) in the URC final last year.

Interestingly, in that URC final, there were as many Leinster Academy graduates (Loughman and Beirne) as there were graduates from Bandon Grammar (Coombes, Crowley).

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318224#Comment_121318224

Has their Rugby program dropped off or the level of schools competition declined in Munster?