Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359590#Comment_121359590

Fair enough, look, I've clarified by position, and it doesn't change that with regards the other 7 I gave as an example.

But... you do you.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359049#Comment_121359049

My original point: The players "given a shot" is nonsense to be honest, they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup. Farrell hs shown that he has no issue with putting players into the team when they meet those targets. 

All of the players you listed performed at their provinces and moved up into the squad and then into the team. A number of the players you listed can claim to be in the top 5 in the World so honestly I have no idea what you said you disagree with. I don't think you are but it sounds like you want some sort of number of minutes in URC and Europe before a player can get into the squad and into the first team for Ireland.

The original post I responded to was dropping experienced internationals to swap in young players for no reason apart fro age. Now you seem to want to only move players into the Irish squad if they are performing well but also based on the numbers of minutes/caps. This would be a disaster for Ireland with the likes of Crowley/Hansen etc

Now I could be taking you up wrong but that's how it reads to me.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360389#Comment_121360389

To be absolutely clear again on this, no, this...

I don't think you are but it sounds like you want some sort of number of minutes in URC and Europe before a player can get into the squad and into the first team for Ireland.

Now you seem to want to only move players into the Irish squad if they are performing well but also based on the numbers of minutes/caps.

...is not at all what I'm saying. My point is specifically on your following quote:

they should be able to perform to a level for their province and then perform in the national setup

"to a level" to me, implies vs high-calibre opposition? (Or maybe I've taken that up wrong?). The majority of the players I've mentioned had limited enough high-level and/or European experience before getting capped.

That doesn't mean I'm saying Farrell was wrong to cap them. I'm not. (And in many, he was very clearly proven right).

But that's different from saying Provincial form or exposure had very much at all to do with it.

leakyboots

Interesting thread from Sam Larner who collates stats and combines them for a "Stuff Score". Shows a player with a rounded game, not just a carrier... or only a tackler or rucker etc.

Cathal Forde is shooting the lights out, being a back (!) and top of the pile where traditonally this is a forwards patch.

David McCann has been putting his hand up for many on here and is in 2nd and Coombes, who I've read comments along the lines of "isn't playing like he wants to be an international", is in third.

The comments raised a wider question around wondering will we see more backrows being tried at centre. Think there's a degree of merit to that if you can get the handling skills up to speed

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364547#Comment_121364547

Interesting read, linked below for anyone interested. I remember looking at some rucks stats around the 6 Nations time and, perhaps not surprising, but Bundee had the highest rucking numbers of our backs. Not to the extent of surpassing the forwards (altho this was just ruck numbers).

https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status/1724066094695034988

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351730#Comment_121351730

There's such a thing as planning for the future.

No doubt the best current15 and some reserves should always be there but you have to introduce younger players to international rugby. If you brought three prospects in for each game that would help a lot.

You get to see what you've got without seriously hurting the team.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364728#Comment_121364728

you won't have any future if you keep losing games.

Throwing 3 prospects into each game for the sake of it would end up a disaster for Ireland in all probability. Losing games and ranking, but of course the coach would also be fired

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364874#Comment_121364874

It's three coming off the bench, not starting. It's not like they'll be miles behind what's on the bench.

Let's use Coombes as an example.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365050#Comment_121365050

Ok, let's. He is not playing particularly well so far this season so far and there is no real indication Ireland is missing out on anything with him. I fail to see what him having been sprung off the bench in the last 6N would have done to change that.

There is a time and a place for players to step into "supporting roles" and in many ways Henderson is already there. That is moreso a function of his own inconsistent play than of any deliberating shifting of a player due to age though.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365050#Comment_121365050

You can't just introduce 3 new players to the 23 every time. New players need a good bit of time/investment in the system, training camps etc. And they need to be backed once they get in the 23, not dropped again to give some other 3 another go. It just doesn't work on any level really.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365266#Comment_121365266

There's an Ireland A now, any player coming from that would be delighted to get one opportunity.

Think about it, guy gets minutes and what's he going to do next. He'll bust his ass to get back in full time.

Wegians89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365398#Comment_121365398

Will the Ireland A match be in place for the six nations?

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365401#Comment_121365401

I think it's after it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365102#Comment_121365102

If you don't think Coombes form from November to the end of last season demonstrated he has something to offer Ireland, then I don't know what to tell ya, Podge...

hold my beer

I don't think Coombes has anything to offer above our current squad.

awec

I think Coombes has lots to offer, his issue is that other players just offer more. If we picked Coombes I'm sure he'd do a grand job, he really is an excellent player, but he's just got a bit of a backlog of better players ahead of him.

Performances like Friday night won't help his cause, Coombes has over twice as many caps for Munster as David McCann does for Ulster yet it was McCann who dominated in that game. Coombes has played nearly 80 times for Munster now, we're long past the up-and-coming stage with him, it's time to **** or get off the pot. I am sure he'll be capped eventually, but he runs the risk of just picking up a token cap against the likes of Samoa or getting a game when there's an usual injury crisis.

I don't put much stock in these statistics people make up either, like this "Stuff score". There are 2 things that we know about the URC:

1. The better a player you are, the less you will have to play in the URC. The stats are skewed toward the middle-of-the-road league regulars, and young players.
2. As far as Ireland are concerned, the majority of URC games are not worth a damn. Coombes has played the Sharks, Treviso, Dragons and Ulster. In reality, his performances in those first 3 games are of little consequence, Coombes tearing it up against the Dragons is not going to move the needle on his test prospects. We have seen this time and time again in the past with many players. What always is more important is how they fare in the big games and the interpros, when they are put head to head against the players they are competing with in the pecking order. Even the opposite is true, how many times have we seen the big players put in average performances in the URC and it has been of no real consequence.

McCann put in excellent performances against Connacht and Munster and was the standout player in both games, this will move the needle for him significantly. He's nowhere near the Ireland 23 right now, but if he puts in more performances like that in any interpros or European games between now and January I would not be surprised to see him in the 6Nations training squad ahead of someone like Coombes.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365867#Comment_121365867

Agreed; the point was made a number of times during the RWC squad race. There will be people in an Irish 23 who are worse rugby players than guys who were sitting at home. I'd consider someone like Coombes a better player than Kilcoyne and more important to Munster, certainly.

But we've top class back row options and someone is going to be kicking their heels. A guy like Coombes probably has something to offer Ireland. But Ireland don't need what he offers because they already have that with guys who are proven operators at the highest level.

His issue now is that other guys like Prendergast and Timoney (both with caps more recently) are outplaying him so far this season whilst lads like Gleeson and Culhane are going to getting increasing minutes also. There will be a training camp in December more than likely and guys need to be showi

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365519#Comment_121365519

I wouldn't be suprised if there was an Ireland A v England A match during the 6 nations the weekend of the 8th /9th of March.

There is no URC that weekend I believe or premiership now with less teams in the league.

England A play Portugual on the 25th of February. So might make sense to try and play ireland a week or 2 later.

Buer

Text box froze and won't let me edit the above...Boards going from strength to strength!

.....There will be a training camp in December more than likely and peripheral guys need to be showing form in the next few weeks at the latest if they want to be involved.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351730#Comment_121351730

If we don't have better options in the 2nd row by 2027 than 35 year olds Beirne and Henderson then it will be because we haven't begun developing them in the next year or two

Neil3030

The punishment Beirne subjects his body to, I can't see him still playing at 35. Henderson might be, but with so much talent coming through at lock country-wide, he's unlikely to be our best option if he is.

Personally I'm very optimistic about what a shake-up might bring to the national setup. On the one hand, the current crop have grand slams in them, and on their day they can beat anyone on the planet convincingly. On the other hand, they underperformed in the RWC QF, and are largely built around a province who have likewise not shown the best version of themselves in knock-out games in the last five years.

One major change is obviously forced, given Sexton's retirement. But I'd be surprised if there aren't a few more changes in what's considered our "best 23" by the end of the Six Nations.

McCann, Murray, Nash, Forde, Ahern, McCarthy, Coombes and possibly Gleeson all look capable of putting pressure on the incumbents. Have a funny feeling JOB will eventually oust Lowe as the starting winger too.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366015#Comment_121366015

baird, mccarty and wycherley are all capped and are all under 26 years of age currently.

threadwell is 28, james ryan is 27.

the development of alternative options has begun ages ago.

no one, literally no one, expects the development to suddenly stop.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366055#Comment_121366055

Beirne seems to be ageing fairly well. He was almost 25 by the time he started a game for the Scarlets. He's had an intense few years but that late start often stands to guys when they're not putting their bodies through serious punishment when still developing physically.

awec

Given their injury records I would imagine Beirne is more likely to still be playing at 35 than Henderson is.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366055#Comment_121366055

JOB is a quality player and very flexible. I think Nash is a possibility to nail down a wing. Lowe will hold out for a year but, he's certainly not undropable.

Henderson has had a career disrupted with injury. I can't see him lasting for this cycle.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366055#Comment_121366055

Iirc, Farrell did seem to have have a decent amount of flux early in his tenure, and was happy to throw guys in early. Part of that was down to retirement (Best, Kearney) but even so, I think we could see the occasional surprise this early in the cycle.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366015#Comment_121366015

Big Joe and Ryan will still hopefully be around, Baird has played etc. I would hope players progress and take the slots but they shouldn't be handed to them because of age

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366175#Comment_121366175

Less miles on clock so Henderson might be still around, Beirne sticks his head into the wrong places so wear & tear could be an issue

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365050#Comment_121365050

What happen if someone is injured after 5 mins etc? the bench is now the winning and losing of games.

Coombes is a player who has been in the squads etc so he has been given a chance. You would need to ask Farrell why he hasn't played more. But as you mentioned him as an example, if he is not performing in training and other players are ripping it up, why would he get onto the bench instead of another player?

OldRio

I thought I read recently that an Ireland development team would be playing an Italian team home and away.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366781#Comment_121366781

you did, a development team from all the academies will play a joint zebre / benetton academy side in DEC / JAN

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irish-provinces-to-combine-for-series-of-matches-in-development-plan/a775054242.html