Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Pudsy33

bayern wrote: »

Herring not a project player.

Nor is Burns, so that's that theory gone

molloyjh

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

Is Herring not there on the grandparent thing?

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

Who is being blocked by this?
If Harry Byrne was good enough he would be ahead of his brother. And he would have started a lot of Heineken cup games over the last 2 years.

if you are really saying that Harry Byrne's development is not being hindered in his current (and last 2 years) situation, that's not really credible.

bayern

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

several of the u20 side are playing an A game right now.

aloooof

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

I suspect this isn't going to go well, but Herring and Burns aren't project players...

prawnsambo

bayern wrote: »

Herring not a project player.

Burns isn't either. He qualifies by right as an Irish eligible citizen.

Rugby4568

bayern wrote: »

several of the u20 side are playing an A game right now.

That’s not good.

Rugby4568

aloooof wrote: »

I suspect this isn't going to go well, but Herring and Burns aren't project players...

They’re not Irish they didn’t come through the system

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

if you are really saying that Harry Byrne's development is not being hindered in his current (and last 2 years) situation, that's not really credible.

Leinster have shown that they are more than happy to promote guys who are ready ahead of existing players in the jersey. Can we please stop with all of this nonsense. I think professional rugby coaches might have some f-ing knowledge of the game and the players over and above random Internet punters who sit by whinging, moaning and second guessing with the safety of anonymity and the cover of absolutely no responsibility for anything g at all.

Harry Byrne is developing fine. He has shown in P14 games against poor opposition this season a few times that he has a little way to go yet. But he is getting minutes and would have HEC experience now but for injury. There is no issue with his progression. None.

phily2002

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 project players start for ireland. A 1/3 of the team.

Herring, Stander, Park, Burns and Lowe.

An honest question is that the highest number to start a 6 nations game?

7 starters came through the Leinster system.
1 through munster ,1 through the Connacht system and 1 through Ulster.

Is nusofora actually doing a decent job?

Meanwhile we have 2019 u20 grandslam winners at home on the couch apart from Casey.

In fairness you could replace them with Kelleher, Conan, Cooney, Byrne and Larmour and we'd be more or less as strong so it's not like we're not developing guys here...

Former Former Former

Of the 23 named for Saturday, 7 have earned their first caps under Farrell, in only 12 months at the helm. (that 7 assumes Casey gets on the field).

I think that's a sizeable number to be honest.

Scratchly

aloooof wrote: »

You're criticising him for glossing over mistakes and fail to mention Ringrose at all. That's as one-eyed as what you're accusing ROG of being.

In any case, I'll leave it there, see zero value in continuing this.

How is that biased? Ringrose knocked it on. It was recovered by Murray. Murray was the one who actually gave Wales the ball to start the attack and Henderson left North unmarked.

Lowe possibly could have done better but wasn't to blame for that try. But ROG and plenty on here seem blind to the actual details of what happened as long as they can blame Lowe.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster have shown that they are more than happy to promote guys who are ready ahead of existing players in the jersey. Can we please stop with all of this nonsense. I think professional rugby coaches might have some f-ing knowledge of the game and the players over and above random Internet punters who sit by whinging, moaning and second guessing with the safety of anonymity and the cover of absolutely no responsibility for anything g at all.

Harry Byrne is developing fine. He has shown in P14 games against poor opposition this season a few times that he has a little way to go yet. But he is getting minutes and would have HEC experience now but for injury. There is no issue with his progression. None.

I'd say that he is delighted.

Probably looks at Jaillibert and N'tamack and wishes he had half their opportunities to develop.

You'd swear that the IRFU and the Leinster branch are above any reproach at all here.

Rugby4568

I wonder how we’d actually do this Six Nations if we played the starting 2019 u20 grand slam winning team. Wonder if we’d actually perform better.

bayern

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I wonder how we’d actually do this Six Nations if we played the starting 2019 u20 grand slam winning team. Wonder if we’d actually perform better.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

I'd say that he is delighted.

Probably looks at Jaillibert and N'tamack and wishes he had half their opportunities to develop.

You'd swear that the IRFU and the Leinster branch are above any reproach at all here.

Ah yeah, just ignore the points about Byrne showing that he still had things to learn against poor P14 opposition. I know it doesn't suit your argument so it's not something you want to acknowledge, so that's grand. Select only the information that helps confirm your bias and ignore everything else. And then roll your eyes at anyone who draws look at all the information.

aloooof

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I wonder how we’d actually do this Six Nations if we played the starting 2019 u20 grand slam winning team. Wonder if we’d actually perform better.

No. Glad to have cleared that up.

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

Marmion isn't even first choice at Connacht anymore. He's been behind Blade for the last 3 inter-pros. If he can't convince Friend, how in the hell is he going to convince Farrell.

I also love how performances from years ago are relevant to some players and not others. Sure Sexton was excellent vs NZ that time.

Gibson Park wasn't first choice at Leinster last season and starts this weekend. The gap between Irish scrum halves is marginal.

Claiming someone who is amongst a small club of Irish players to start in wins against England and New Zealand isn't test level is bizarre.

Ruling out half backs because they played behind under performing packs and alongside Murray/Sexton playing far from their best seems very hasty.

Lost Ormond

Rugby4568 wrote: »

I wonder how we’d actually do this Six Nations if we played the starting 2019 u20 grand slam winning team. Wonder if we’d actually perform better.

Of course we'd do better. We'd win every game by 50 points, conceding nothing and break every record for points scored etc


Or we'd be well beaten learn nothing and would go several steps backwards and potentially ruin/permenantly damage many players international careers

bayern

glasso wrote: »

I'd say that he is delighted.

Probably looks at Jaillibert and N'tamack and wishes he had half their opportunities to develop.

You'd swear that the IRFU and the Leinster branch are above any reproach at all here.

Yeah poor Harry Byrne, he stands no chance.. :rolleyes:

Leinster have an awful record at developing players.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

Yeah poor Harry Byrne, he stands no chance.. :rolleyes:

Leinster have an awful record at developing players.

He should get there in the end but....

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Leinster don't really have a great record at developing 9's and 10's in the last decade, since Sexton came through.

And that was during their time of greatest success.

aloooof

glasso wrote: »

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Zero. Glad to have cleared that up.

Must love hardship

phily2002 wrote: »

In fairness you could replace them with Kelleher, Conan, Cooney, Byrne and Larmour and we'd be more or less as strong so it's not like we're not developing guys here...

I 100% agree with you we'd be more or less as strong and not as many younger players would be getting backed up in the system with not enough game time.. we'd actually develop more players.

My question is are the project players that nusofora has identified as potential irish internationals getting and unfair advantage or more of a crack of the whip than players we have developed through the system.

Or are they substantially better than the younger irish players and deserve the Jersey more.

Honest question.

aloooof

Must love hardship wrote: »

I 100% agree with you we'd be more or less as strong and not as many younger players would be getting backed up in the system with not enough game time.. we'd actually develop more players.

My question is are the project players that nusofora has identified as potential irish internationals getting and unfair advantage or more of a crack of the whip than players we have developed through the system.

Or are they substantially better than the younger irish players and deserve the Jersey more.

Honest question.

Honest answer here is I don't think so. I think it's just a confluence of events, particularly at 10. We put time into developing Carbery and Jackson. For reasons we don't need to go into, neither are available now.

If one or both were still available I don't think Burns would have been signed. And I don't think we'd be talking about Harry Byrne anywhere near as much.

theVersatile

Must love hardship wrote: »

I 100% agree with you we'd be more or less as strong and not as many younger players would be getting backed up in the system with not enough game time.. we'd actually develop more players.

My question is are the project players that nusofora has identified as potential irish internationals getting and unfair advantage or more of a crack of the whip than players we have developed through the system.

Or are they substantially better than the younger irish players and deserve the Jersey more.

Honest question.

I would say Herring and CJ are substantially better than Kelleher and Conan. Once Kelleher hones in on his darts he'll be in a good position (I used to just think he was overrated but started to see what he can do in his open field play when he bowled over AWJ). Conan has been fairly average in green up until now.
Its been well noted on here that its Earls being ahead of Larmour which is the issue, rather than Lowe. Not sure what's going on with Conway. Daly needs a few more years I'd say - operating at a solid but not spectacular level atm.
I'd say only JGP is the only one who isn't clearly better than his Irish counterparts, although the same could be argued for Burns compared to who's fit (but if Joey comes back he won't be an issue)

prawnsambo

glasso wrote: »

I'd say that he is delighted.

Probably looks at Jaillibert and N'tamack and wishes he had half their opportunities to develop.

You'd swear that the IRFU and the Leinster branch are above any reproach at all here.

When Ntamack got his chance, Toulouse had Toby Flood, Jean-Marc Doussain and Zack Holmes for him to usurp. The former two at the end of their careers and Holmes a journeyman centre/out half from Oz. Toulouse had finished 12th in the previous season. It's not even a close comparison.

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

He should get there in the end but....

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Leinster don't really have a great record at developing 9's and 10's in the last decade, since Sexton came through.

And that was during their time of greatest success.

You are working off the assumption that Harry Byrne = Roman Ntamack. Thats a flawed starting position. Everything that follows is flawed as a result. A player looking good in a couple of games doesn't make him the Messiah. Ian Madigan looked good in a lot more games a few years back. He very much wasn't the Messiah.

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

You are working off the assumption that Harry Byrne = Roman Ntamack. Thats a flawed starting position. Everything that follows is flawed as a result. A player looking good in a couple of games doesn't make him the Messiah. Ian Madigan looked good in a lot more games a few years back. He very much wasn't the Messiah.

And Madigan was losing the race with his contemporary at the time; Ian McKinley imo.

lawrencesummers

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Of course we'd do better. We'd win every game by 50 points, conceding nothing and break every record for points scored etc


Or we'd be well beaten learn nothing and would go several steps backwards and potentially ruin/permenantly damage many players international careers

Fair point. Going several steps backwards in one go is worse than going a few steps backwards.

Maybe the idea is that you go five steps backwards to go one step forward eventually. Instead of constantly going half steps backwards.

joseywhales

Farrel, SOB and murray(maybe everyone associated with Irish rugby for the past 10 years, I've just seen recent interviews with these guys), need to cut out "et cetera" from their vocab. Et cetera this and et cetera that. It's like someone started a trend in camp about 10 years ago and they are all addicted to this magical word now that fills space for them.


"They've been training all week et cetera"