Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl

I get the point re Ryan and POM. If you plan to give it to Ryan then do it while POM is around to help. Not sure what benefit you get from waiting even longer under someone else.

*not saying it will be Ryan. Don't really have any idea.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391872#Comment_121391872

Entirely possible. I’ve no idea which side the initial injury was on.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391012#Comment_121391012

This wouldn't be something new tho. It's happened Drico. And Heaslip too iirc? Who is someone I would point to as the perfect example of a short-term / interim captain. I think POM would be ideal til the end of next season tbh.

And there were plenty of blowback about both being stripped of their captaincy.

Playing someone who doesn't deserve it doesn't at all sound like something Farrell would do tbh so I don't think you need to be concerned about that.

I don't think he would but you're setting himself up to be an even bigger issue then it would be to just drop POM. Why do that to himself?

Extremely toxic environment? Do you mean within the camp? Cos that doesn't sound at all like something POM would contribute tbh.

Never been in Irish camp so no idea of the dynamics there. Giving and then pulling the captaincy in quick succession of a captain of one province can't be a positive for the camp as a whole.

If you mean outside the the camp i.e. fans and media, even if we grant you that (which tbh, I think is a stretch), I'm again not sure it's something Farrell would pay any heed to whatsoever. I don't think any outside voices have an affect on Farrell's selections.

Absolutely not a stretch, we had multiple 'analysts' with a huge footprint within the impacted province fanbase claiming a few months ago during the most successful period in Irish rugby history that an extended squad selection for a player who was never going to get near playing was going to have an extremely negative impact on the sport - that it was creating that exact 'toxic environment'. Imagine now their cult hero being stripped of the captaincy if they dont agree with it.

If Farrell isn't paying any heed he isn't doing his job. Again, why set up potential drama for yourself and your captain post POM? If the younger candidates aren't ready for this straight forward transfer of leadership, what is going to change in the next year for them to be ready to take on a likely far more challenging task?

Farrell might very well say to hell with it and POM deserves it for his years of service but if he isn't taking into account the wider impact of his decisions then I'd think less of him as a big picture thinker.

aloooof

@Foxtrol aside from anything else, this

we had multiple 'analysts' with a huge footprint within the impacted province fanbase claiming a few months ago during the most successful period in Irish rugby history that an extended squad selection for a player who was never going to get near playing was going to have an extremely negative impact on the sport - that it was creating that exact 'toxic environment'.

...isn't remotely true.

Not even close.

Must love hardship

This is going to be a long 10 or 12 weeks until the next squad and captain is picked.

I'd be extremely suprised if it's not Ryan.

There is too much competition in the back row and realistically Pom should be phased out for the likes of Prendergast, Deegan and Baird.

We don't need any 35 year olds on central contracts next year.

RichieRich_89

I'm curious is McCann a Farrell player. He looks good to me, but so did Baloucoune. I think I'm right in saying McCann only made the Emerging Ireland squad when Alexis Soroka pulled out with an injury.

Is he dynamic, athletic and fast enough for Farrell?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392333#Comment_121392333

I'd say he's all those things, but only now.

He didn't really start to flourish until the end of last season, when he started getting consistent game time and has filled out considerably this season. It was nice seeing him playing sporadically at the start of last season. but it's only in the last six months that he's looked impactful and this season that he's really imposed himself on games. He's always been highly skilful - it's only now that he looks physically ready. He took a while to get there, while Prendergast, for example, was there much sooner.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392284#Comment_121392284

What isn't true?

You must have some sort of selective amnesia when it comes to that insane clickbait seeking overreaction from those 'analysts' to an extended squad selection and the knock on toxicity it caused.

At the time you were right in the middle of the discussion here, if I remember correctly throwing around bans for those who walked or crossed the line calling out the nonsense of the 'analysts' in question. Then a few months ago you weirdly claimed none of that ever happened and I provided you links to some of their tweets.

Are you really again claiming none of that happened?

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392333#Comment_121392333

I've come to the conclusion that McCann is O'Mahony 2.0. The similarities are uncanny actually. So style wise I don't se why he wouldn't be a Farrell player. Ability wise? Well we won't know until if and when he makes the step up.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392684#Comment_121392684

I've come to the conclusion that McCann is O'Mahony 2.0.

That may well be awkward for a few posters around here.

Neil3030

The real test will be McCann's first interview by Reggie Corrigan.

Then we'll know.

ersatz

Sheehan and Porter are other nailed on starters who have youth on their side. Do either have captaincy experience/potential?

El Vino

I think it should be Ringrose, increasingly front 5 forwards are playing 55mins or less. It is a long time with a stand in captain.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392483#Comment_121392483

What isn't true?

This:

we had multiple 'analysts' ... claiming a few months ago ... that an extended squad selection for a player ... was going to have an extremely negative impact on the sport

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393000#Comment_121393000

They did - you saw the tweets at the time and were heavily involved in the discussion here about them for days. I then posted some of the tweets again a few months ago when you tried to gaslight that it never happened, which it looks like you're up to your old tricks and trying to repeat now.

I'm likely wasting my time, as you'll move the goalposts, deflect, or the selective amnesia will kick in again in a few months, but here are a few examples of the extremely negative impacts on rugby in Ireland that were claimed by 'analysts' from a certain province:

1) That it would feed into a corrosive perception of favouritism towards one province:

'When the perception is that you have to play twice as well for twice as long to get half the opportunities, that can be corrosive down the line.'

2) That it was likely to cause certain fans to develop apathy for the team:

'The more the national side becomes dominated by one province the more chance that supporters develop apathy towards the side.'

3) That it was likely to make players from other provinces leave Ireland:

'the Irish team continues to be Leinster dominated and the enticement of staying in Ireland to play in green becomes less of a reason to stay for those not in blue.'

This is the absolutely toxic nonsense I was talking about, again during the most successful period in Irish rugby and all crying about an extended squad selection for a player that had a zero chance of playing, no matter who was brought into the squad.

Now imagine what bile they'll come out with if AF stripped their cult hero of captaincy in a manner they didn't agree with, especially if Ireland were getting poor results and there was a negative mood.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393379#Comment_121393379

Connacht have a herd of Leinster players too! Do these lads count if selected for outrage?

TRC10

If O'Mahony gets the captaincy, we'll keep kicking the can down the road, get seduced by the temptation of short term results to the neglect of preparing for the World Cup. And next thing you know it we'll be going to Australia 2027 with an undroppaple 38 year old captain. And we'll go out in the quarters again.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393466#Comment_121393466

Clickbaiters will clickbait but I presume a Connacht selection wouldn't get them the same return on faux outrage.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393483#Comment_121393483

Ah, Im not sure we can compare the POM potential situation and the actual Sexton situation in that way. POM has a lot of competition for his spot and a lot more coming down the pipe. We have relied on him for his line out skills to a much greater degree that we should have, and recently that's mainly because the line out has been a coaching/execution mess. Fix that things will look very different. He is a phenomenon but I don't see us ending in a position where he remains the best in his position unquestionably in 3 years. If he does there are much greater problems that will make success at the world cup a non starter.

Podge_irl

MOD: Ok, address the post not the poster also means not dragging up your perceived view of their past or expectant behaviour. Just deal with what is posted.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393379#Comment_121393379

It would be more helpful if you attributed the quotes.

Nonetheless, I don't think any of these are anything to be taken lightly and conversations with fans would suggest it absolutely is a problem. Regardless, I doubt AF will give it much thought when it comes to deciding what to do with the captaincy.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393638#Comment_121393638

In response to that poster a few months ago, I'd previously embedded the tweets but that doesn't seem possible anymore. For reference, those quotes were taken from a TRK thread with 62k view and Overthehill prop thread with 164k views.

I dont understand your point of view, surely if it is a problem then AF would be foolish not to put much thought into it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393702#Comment_121393702

So by analysts we mean posters? I'm not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand exactly what you're saying.

I think it would be silly not to acknowledge that fans can feel alienated by the squad selection, and if they are posting about that and claiming annoyance I'd take them at their word. Does it matter for the squad as a whole? I think probably not, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. I don't think the captaincy falls under the same vein though.

phog

There was a full on #notmycaptain campaign a few years back, I can't recall it getting much traction here and it certainly didn't affect the then Captain nor the team

Why then, would anyone here be bothered about something that hasn't yet happened?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393809#Comment_121393809

Not posters, I described them earlier as 'Patreon Analysts'. The usual heads on Twitter who have thousands of followers and thrive off reactions for clicks so they can make money, though I'm sure some just enjoy the troll.

Don't know how you're separating the captaincy from those feelings, I'd see the captaincy as being a far bigger thing than a random once off selection decision.

Whoever is made captain is going to have all the tear jerking interviews about how it is the proudest moment of their career. If you strip that from that fan favourite a few months later, it is a recipe to annoy those same fans, especially with the Twitter arsonists I mentioned stoking the fires.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393904#Comment_121393904

No one is overly 'bothered', we're simply having a discussion about the pros and cons to different options - I will take this moment to point out that I am still waiting for a case to be made for POM that he couldn't do as part of the squad supporting another captain.

Farrell on the other hand should be 'bothered' because identifying potential negative outcomes of a decision is a basic part of being an adult and vital for a national team coach.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393379#Comment_121393379

you tried to gaslight

you're up to your old tricks

the selective amnesia will kick in again in a few months

I've little interest in trading ad-hominem's so am going to leave it at that Foxtrol. Suffice to say I think it entirely fair for Podge to seek clarification when in posts such as the following...

we had multiple 'analysts' with a huge footprint within the impacted province fanbase claiming a few months ago during the most successful period in Irish rugby history that an extended squad selection for a player who was never going to get near playing was going to have an extremely negative impact on the sport - that it was creating that exact 'toxic environment'.

... you fail to mention / clarify:

• who the 'analysts' are
• who the "impacted province fanbase" is
• and who the "player who was never going to get near playing" was

I don't really see why you can't just name who you're referring to, and say what you mean.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393979#Comment_121393979

I will take this moment to point out that I am still waiting for a case to be made for POM that he couldn't do as part of the squad supporting another captain.

I've made the case:

the one difference is with regards the ability to talk to (influence) the referee.

Non-captains don't have as much leeway to talk to referees as the actual captain.

ersatz

deleted

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393904#Comment_121393904

In fairness to that campaign it was designed to embarrass the IRFU and the captain in the minds of people who aren't necessarily rugby fans. It may not have affected boards or the team but it definitely helped seal the deal on Jackson as far as the IRFU was concerned. Best attending the trial while he was captain of the Irish team ended up amplifying the circus.