Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394223#Comment_121394223

As I said already, it had no affect on the then captain, the team and was hardly mentioned on Boards, yet we have numerous posts on what might happen if POM is appointed as a short term Captain.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394308#Comment_121394308

2 categorically different and unrelated issues though. I'd say POMs captaincy or lack thereof is of absolutely no interest to most people in the country beyond rugby anoraks while Best showing up a the rape trial was major news beyond the sports pages, and not the kind of news rugby inc. enjoys. I think it had a big effect on Best and scared the shite out of the union.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394371#Comment_121394371

But captain Best remained for nearly two further calendar years.

So I think phog's point is solid. Regardless of what anoraks and Twitter personalities might say if POM loses his captaincy before he retires—if he's even made captain in the first place—it will have little to no consequence on the functioning within the Irish setup.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394419#Comment_121394419

Sure. Most teams wouldn't blink an eye at changing the captaincy. For seem reason Irish fans make a big deal out of mundane or routine team developments. I'm just pointing out that Best going to the trial as Jackson's captain was a genuinely big deal beyond rugby while POM's coming and going as captain is largely irrelevant to all but the most engaged Rugby boffins.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394010#Comment_121394010

You never asked any of those questions though, that would have been too constructive to a discussion. I would have been happy to clarify just like I did for Podge when he asked. Instead in your usual posting style you just gave a one line response stirring the pot, this time calling me a liar, twice.

I've now provided the quotes that you claimed were 'untrue' and of course you're refusing to engage in your error - just like what I said you'd likely do.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394024#Comment_121394024

That is an incredibly weak case for him. Don't see much evidence of him being much more effective in that regard than the other options, definitely not so much to negate the downsides of him being made captain.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394371#Comment_121394371

I think you've missed my point, so I'll leave it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394440#Comment_121394440

We can debate how much an affect it'd have, but you asked for a case for something POM couldn't do as part of the squad supporting another captain.

I gave you one.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394436#Comment_121394436

I didn't call you a liar. I said what you said wasn't true.

That's not the same thing.

But again you go for the ad-hominem.

Mr Tickle

The main benefit I could see to having him as captain for a year would be having someone to take the flack for 12 months if we have a poor year because we're rebuilding. Rather than having Ryan start his tenure under fire, have POM soak that up, then hand it over when things have started to improve.

TRC10

I'd like to see it go to someone like Dan Sheehan. He strikes me as a far more confrontational, self-assured personality than Ryan, who by all accounts is quite introverted (nothing wrong with that), which I think is better for a captain. He's one of the first names on the teams sheet and a genuine World class player, and at 25 he'll be there for the full World Cup cycle. It would be a nice change from what we've always done, which is appoint someone in the twilight of their career (Sexton, Best, POC).

pickarooney

Wasn't Ryan captain of every team he ever played for?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395515#Comment_121395515

Didn't he play for Munster 😎

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395266#Comment_121395266

James Ryan has captained Leinster and Ireland multiple times. I'd bank on the coaches and players' leadership groups there to be significantly more knowledgeable on his capabilities as a leader within the squad, rather than people here claiming he's introverted and not assertive enough.

phog

I said this before but worth repeating as it seems to have been missed

POM has captained every team he's played including the Lions.

Btw, he lost the captaincy of the Lions team and I don't recall too much controversy about him losing it.

The scaremongering here is unreal

AdamD

I really don't see the issue with giving it to POM for a season

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395266#Comment_121395266

Personally I think a 2nd or back row is a better choice when possible. I remember we used keep best on longer than I thought he should (My own opinion) and part of that was probably because he's captain.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395765#Comment_121395765

It's not just posters here. I'm sure there were examples of pundits and commentators (often ex-teammates) making that point.

I'm almost sure James Ryan himself has spoken about Lancaster pushing guys in the dressing-room to find their voice more.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395979#Comment_121395979

Best was kept on because people didn't think we had good enough backup, even I was shocked when I seen Kelleher was only called up to the squad in 2020 6 nations. Cronin and Scannell went to World Cup. I can't remember why Herring wasn't in the picture because he has certainly shown he is a quality operator.

Sheehan only came into the team post World Cup as well.

From memory and I could be wrong but wasn't hooker one of the "problem" position mentioned for Ireland after 2019 World Cup and has really turned into one of the strongest now with 3 top quality players and other behind them

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396045#Comment_121396045

I've seen those "find the voice" comments specifically about Garry Ringrose - but not on James Ryan.

This perception of him as a very quiet type is not the case, and I'm seen numerous players joking about the fact that his public persona is quite different to how he is behind the scenes. There are quotes out there from Cian Healy, Keith Earls and others saying how he's assertive and vocal as a leader within the team.

This is a guy who made his Irish debut in the summer of 2017, and was described as a member of team's leadership group by 2019, when he was just 23. He first captained Ireland back in 2020.

To underline it all - he's been chosen to captain Ireland (ahead of POM) as recently as August, and has just been made co-captain at Leinster, where he specifically has the responsibility of engaging with the ref when he and Garry are both on the field.

I've huge respect for Peter O'Mahony - he's been a great player for Ireland, a key leader and I hope he's still there for the foreseeable future, but the suggestions that James Ryan isn't ready right now for the Irish captaincy aren't supported by evidence IMO.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396290#Comment_121396290

the suggestions that James Ryan isn't ready right now for the Irish captaincy aren't supported by evidence IMO.

Which, to be clear, is not a suggestion that I've been making.

I've suggested he could possibly get in the ref's ear slightly more frequently, which could lead to better outcomes, however marginal they might be. And I've pointed out that it has been a criticism of his captaincy in the past.

I think that's all pretty fair.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395979#Comment_121395979

It was perhaps part of it, but it was largely because the alternative options simply weren't trusted. Cronin and Scannell were the other hookers in that squad - I think had either of Herring or Kelleher been a few years older it would have been a very different situation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396336#Comment_121396336

Where specifically has he been criticised for not getting at referees more?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396379#Comment_121396379

It happened as recently as April:

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/rte-pundits-james-ryan-captain-skill-548618

I'm certain it's been a mentioned about him in the past too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396416#Comment_121396416

Oh right - so Fiona Coghlan and Jamie Heaslip said it based on one game (where Leinster won handily).

Do you think it's at all possible, given James Ryan only actually lost one match in 2023 (and even then they were well ahead when he went off, and his injury was probably the defining moment of that game) that Ryan decides when to plead his case and when it doesn't make sense?

It shouldn't be both ways - people have criticised Sexton in the past for being overly vocal with referees.

I think if you look at Leinster's performances over the past couple of years when Ryan has captained, they haven't struggled to get their share of penalties, or cards for opposition players.

I'd place more stock in that than throwaway quotes to be honest.

sydthebeat

no one wants a jamie richie captaining ireland

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396490#Comment_121396490

Oh right - so Fiona Coghlan and Jamie Heaslip said it based on one game (where Leinster won handily).

Stephen Ferris too. ;)

Do you think it's at all possible, given James Ryan only actually lost one match in 2023 (and even then they were well ahead when he went off, and his injury was probably the defining moment of that game) that Ryan decides when to plead his case and when it doesn't make sense?

Not only possible, I'd say that's likely. I'd be worried if it wasn't tbh. It still doesn't mean there's be no room for improvement from him in that regard.

It shouldn't be both ways - people have criticised Sexton in the past for being overly vocal with referees.

I think if you look at Leinster's performances over the past couple of years when Ryan has captained, they haven't struggled to get their share of penalties, or cards for opposition players.

I'd place more stock in that than throwaway quotes to be honest.

Well, I mean, you did ask for them... my original point being it wasn't just posters here making that argument about him.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393483#Comment_121393483

That isn’t kicking the can down the road. That is the literal intentional plan of the irfu. We care just as much about winning 6 nations as the world cup. We are never ever going to sacrifice wins now for a world cup 4/3 or even 2 years from now.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396567#Comment_121396567

Why should we? I don't see why the IRFU or Ireland wouldn't want to win the 6 nations

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396574#Comment_121396574

I totally agree with you. I was just reacting to the idea that this isn’t an intentional reasoned thing.