Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

You are working off the assumption that Harry Byrne = Roman Ntamack. Thats a flawed starting position. Everything that follows is flawed as a result. A player looking good in a couple of games doesn't make him the Messiah. Ian Madigan looked good in a lot more games a few years back. He very much wasn't the Messiah.

and Jailibert also...?

there goes your N'tamack-only argument out the window

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Honest answer here is I don't think so. I think it's just a confluence of events, particularly at 10. We put time into developing Carbery and Jackson. For reasons we don't need to go into, neither are available now.

If one or both were still available I don't think Burns would have been signed. And I don't think we'd be talking about Harry Byrne anywhere near as much.

This very point has been made numerous times. We could have Sexton starting for Leinster with Ross Byrne as his number 2 and Harry on the verge of usurping him. We could have Jackson in Ulster. We could have Carbery in Munster with Ben Healy as his number 2 and Jack Crowley coming through as well. That would be 3 Test level 10s with a load of potential behind it. Guys like Ross Byrne and Jack Carty would be battling it out for 4th choice and would look like they were about to be overtaken by a new generation. We'd be lauding ourselves for our depth. But circumstance has made a mess of that.

bayern

glasso wrote: »

He should get there in the end but....

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Leinster don't really have a great record at developing 9's and 10's in the last decade, since Sexton came through.

And that was during their time of greatest success.

:rolleyes:

Rugby4568

aloooof wrote: »

Honest answer here is I don't think so. I think it's just a confluence of events, particularly at 10. We put time into developing Carbery and Jackson. For reasons we don't need to go into, neither are available now.

If one or both were still available I don't think Burns would have been signed. And I don't think we'd be talking about Harry Byrne anywhere near as much.

So true actually. If Jackson and Carbery were available nobody would have even mentioned Harry Byrne.

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

and Jailibert also...?

there goes your N'tamack-only argument out the window

I never made that argument. Please try again.

Tommybojangles

glasso wrote: »

that's reaching.

Mad comment,, reaching to point out that France were more inclined to give Ntamack a shot because they had been s**** for 5 years? Of course they had.

Finishing outside the top 3 for a couple of years in a row is a legitimate reason to start thinking about a rebuild, the way people on here want us to rebuild and play the u 20 team everytime we lose a game

Must love hardship

aloooof wrote: »

Honest answer here is I don't think so. I think it's just a confluence of events, particularly at 10. We put time into developing Carbery and Jackson. For reasons we don't need to go into, neither are available now.

If one or both were still available I don't think Burns would have been signed. And I don't think we'd be talking about Harry Byrne anywhere near as much.

Thanks for the honest answer.

I just think we have been very quick to promote the project players ahead of alternative options.

Klyen going to the world cup was another one that p1ssed me off. Bent into the 6 nations another one, (playing great for leinster lately)

Another queation is has nusofora ever raided Oz for a project player?? I think Bedhlam coming over to Ireland pre-dates nusofora and he played u 20 for ireland.

Rugby4568

joseywhales wrote: »

Farrel, SOB and murray(maybe everyone associated with Irish rugby for the past 10 years, I've just seen recent interviews with these guys), need to cut out "et cetera" from their vocab. Et cetera this and et cetera that. It's like someone started a trend in camp about 10 years ago and they are all addicted to this magical word now that fills space for them.


"They've been training all week et cetera"

I never say that word.

UAEguy2020

Ntamack played at 10 for France before he played 10 for Toulouse...would Ireland ever pick a 10 in that predicament.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

:rolleyes:

they haven't developed one consistent international-class 9 or 10 in the last decade so not sure what the rolleyes is....

phily2002

glasso wrote: »

He should get there in the end but....

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Leinster don't really have a great record at developing 9's and 10's in the last decade, since Sexton came through.

And that was during their time of greatest success.

Sexton, Joey C, Ross Byrne, Luke McGrath all internationals, Harry Byrne is motoring along nicely as is Crawley. They don't develop 9 and 10s like the back row but they are doing alright

DGRulz

In all the drama, I had completely missed Henderson being made captain for the first time. Fair play to him.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I never made that argument. Please try again.

N'tamack, Jalibert, even Carbonel.

All way ahead of any 10 in Ireland of the same age bracket.

for the reasons I outlined it's obvious why.

phily2002

phily2002 wrote: »

Sexton, Joey C, Ross Byrne, Luke McGrath all internationals, Harry Byrne is motoring along nicely as is Crawley. They don't develop 9 and 10s like the back row but they are doing alright

Sexton was already there (I did say last decade)

none of the others have been consistent international class as they simply haven't done it.

We don't know on the others yet as they haven't got the opportunities to show it.

the baby bull elephant

Irish 10 ≠ French 10 in terms of role and responsibilities in their team.

prawnsambo

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ntamack played at 10 for France before he played 10 for Toulouse...would Ireland ever pick a 10 in that predicament.

We've done it in other positions. James Ryan and Brian O'Driscoll come to mind. The closest was Joey Carbery who was just two months between starting at 10 for Leinster and getting his first cap for Ireland.

lawrencesummers

The loss of Murray and Sexton is a massive bonus for Irish Rugby. The result on Sunday won’t prove that, but the best thing that could happen Irish rugby and our long term ambition of a RWC semi final is if Sexton never started a game again.


That said, if Burns plays 100% better this week than he did last week he still will not be good enough as an international 10. The best of luck to the guy, but he doesn’t have the physicality, skills or temperament for this level. I think he will be off before halftime either by injury or embarrassment as our pack is going to be under huge pressure allowing the French more time to hammer down is lane. He is going to have to help defend DuPont at times and the quality they have at 10 & 12 doesn’t allow that.

The other issue is that our bench is far weaker this week than last week. If the French decide to twist the knife it could get really ugly.

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

He should get there in the end but....

have many years will he have been stunted by the end do you think?

Leinster don't really have a great record at developing 9's and 10's in the last decade, since Sexton came through.

And that was during their time of greatest success.

We certainly struggle to develop scrum halves for whatever reason. But 10s we do okay at. Since Sexton we developed Madigan, McKinley (who looked a serious prospect), Carbery and Ross Byrne. We now have Harry Byrne coming through as well. That's at least 2, if not 3, guys who did or could have gone on to be Test standard. And certainly 1 or 2 that are decent 3rd/4th choice type options. For 1 club in 10 years that's not bad. France couldn't manage that across 14 clubs for most of that time.

aloooof

Must love hardship wrote: »

Thanks for the honest answer.

I just think we have been very quick to promote the project players ahead of alternative options.

Klyen going to the world cup was another one that p1ssed me off. Bent into the 6 nations another one, (playing great for leinster lately)

Another queation is has nusofora ever raided Oz for a project player?? I think Bedhlam coming over to Ireland pre-dates nusofora and he played u 20 for ireland.

I can understand the Kleyn, particularly as Dev was such a stallwart.

But equally tho there are project players who never got near the international team. Rhys Marshall is one that comes to mind, in a position where we haven't been great of late. Bleyendaal is another who may have gotten a look in at some point (tho he was plagued by injury too). I'm much more familiar with the Munster lads but I'm sure there are others.

ClanofLams

Whatever about Carbery, Paddy Jackson hasn't been available to Ireland for three years. Time to stop falling back on him.

Worth noting too his international development didn't progress as quickly as it should have given Ireland strangely persisted with Madigan for the 2016 6N games despite his move to France and therefore unavailability having been confirmed. Not a big deal or anything but it was strange to say the least. Same posters still certain about the infallibility of coaches were saying it was obviously the right decision and Jackson wasn't ready/capable at international level, couple of months later Jackson led a 14 man Ireland team to their first victory in South Africa ever.

bayern

molloyjh wrote: »

We certainly struggle to develop scrum halves for whatever reason. But 10s we do okay at. Since Sexton we developed Madigan, McKinley (who looked a serious prospect), Carbery and Ross Byrne. We now have Harry Byrne coming through as well. That's at least 2, if not 3, guys who did or could have gone on to be Test standard. And certainly 1 or 2 that are decent 3rd/4th choice type options. For 1 club in 10 years that's not bad. France couldn't manage that across 14 clubs for most of that time.

poor skill development.

lawrencesummers

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The loss of Murray and Sexton is a massive bonus for Irish Rugby. The result on Sunday won’t prove that, but the best thing that could happen Irish rugby and our long term ambition of a RWC semi final is if Sexton never started a game again.

I mean, surely Sexton should never start again for not responding to being concussed in a way you were satisfied with right?

And if it's a bonus that Murray is also out - should he similarly never start again?

I think hobbling our chances to win games so that we can play inferior players at 10 is genuinely daft thinking. Neither Burns nor Byrne strike me as players that can take a team to a world cup semi final, especially when we're in a group with South Africa and Scotland. If Carbery was available there would be an argument but he isn't.

We would have a much better chance of winning this weekend with Sexton at 10 and if he was fit he would be starting and rightly so.

prawnsambo

glasso wrote: »

N'tamack, Jalibert, even Carbonel.

All way ahead of any 10 in Ireland of the same age bracket.

for the reasons I outlined it's obvious why.

I don't believe this is a valid comparison. French rugby and their out halves has been a bit of a mess over the last decade. In the 2015 RWC they had Flakey Freddie Michalak and Remi Tales as their out halves. A better comparison is with England where the likes of Marcus Smith can't get past George Ford and Owen Farrell.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't believe this is a valid comparison. French rugby and their out halves has been a bit of a mess over the last decade. In the 2015 RWC they had Flakey Freddie Michalak and Remi Tales as their out halves. A better comparison is with England where the likes of Marcus Smith can't get past George Ford and Owen Farrell.

but at least in Smith England have a young player ready to step up.

Ireland hasn't developed one in that age bracket to do so.

Plus it's not as if Ford and Farrell (two decent options) are in obvious decline

England haven't had to resort to pulling in average-level 10's into their squad or team.

lawrencesummers

Deleted User wrote: »

I mean, surely Sexton should never start again for not responding to being concussed in a way you were satisfied with right?

And if it's a bonus that Murray is also out - should he similarly never start again?

I think hobbling our chances to win games so that we can play inferior players at 10 is genuinely daft thinking. Neither Burns nor Byrne strike me as players that can take a team to a world cup semi final, especially when we're in a group with South Africa and Scotland. If Carbery was available there would be an argument but he isn't.

We would have a much better chance of winning this weekend with Sexton at 10 and if he was fit he would be starting and rightly so.

Do you think Murray and Sexton are good enough to take us to a World Cup semi final?

arsebiscuits1

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't believe this is a valid comparison. French rugby and their out halves has been a bit of a mess over the last decade. In the 2015 RWC they had Flakey Freddie Michalak and Remi Tales as their out halves. A better comparison is with England where the likes of Marcus Smith can't get past George Ford and Owen Farrell.

This.

People can fawn on about French developing younger players but the inescapable fact is France have had nothing but **** 10s for a decade before these lads came along.

They didn't have a choice but to play them.

They had no one else and nothing to lose.

The scenarios of developing players in this context is totally different.

If France had 2 even moderately decent 10s who were in their mid 20s a few years back, Jalibert and Ntamack would have gotten a fraction of the amount of caps.

Regarding being ready too - what's the schooling system like in France? In Ireland as long as people are in school full time until they're 18, they're unlikely to be ready for the top level until they're 20 at least

TRC10

prawnsambo wrote: »

A better comparison is with England where the likes of Marcus Smith can't get past George Ford and Owen Farrell.

Ford and Farrell are 27 and 29 respectively, so they will both be around at the next world cup. They have also both performed at a high standard, reached a world cup final and won a 6 nations in the last 18 months. They both also aren't huge liabilities in that they aren't extremely injury prone. So I dont think it's anything like the H.Byrne/Sexton situation.

swiwi_

4568 who do we appreciate.

LOL JGP at 9.

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

This.

People can fawn on about French developing younger players but the inescapable fact is France have had nothing but **** 10s for a decade before these lads came along.

They didn't have a choice but to play them.

They had no one else and nothing to lose.

The scenarios of developing players in this context is totally different.

If France had 2 even moderately decent 10s who were in their mid 20s a few years back, Jalibert and Ntamack would have gotten a fraction of the amount of caps.

I made exactly the same point; up to and including the 6 Nations where Ntamack got his first cap, France's best finish in the 6 Nations in the previous 8 years had been one 3rd place finish.

This was dismissed as "reaching".

lawrencesummers

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Do you think Murray and Sexton are good enough to take us to a World Cup semi final?

I think they have at one stage if not now nor potentially in 2023 shown a sufficient ceiling to be world cup winners. Both are Lions test starters.

I think unless Burns or Byrne show a substantially higher ceiling than they have previously, neither player will ever tour with the Lions and if starting outhalves for Ireland will rely on an utterly dominant pack to deliver silverware at a World cup.

About the only argument in favour of either of those players starting this weekend is that they might be back up for the RWC.

But that is an inferior argument to building a winning culture, winning the tournament and playing an overall higher standard of rugby with better halves at the helm.

Certainly - those two conflicting arguments (even if you think they should be the other way around), really should draw better commentary than 'it's a bonus for Ireland and Sexton should never start again'.