F1 2020: ROUND 16 Bahrain 2

Joeface

Joeface wrote: »

Bottas went out on the same set he came in on which were pretty much dead by the end., Russell was given Bottas tires . So the issue is only on Russell's car. Wrong tires and more sets used than is allowed.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

They had been sitting around for almost a minute before he went back out on them, so they had lost a lot of temperature. Also, everyone else had got mediums on at that stage, so he was fighting a losing battle to keep up on the restart back in traffic.

So he was meant to go to the end on them anyway. He had plenty of time under the SC to get them up to temperature. If they were as bad as stated he would have been swamped on the restart without stopping.

LollipopJimmy

Getting worn out tyres up to temp and keeping them working is near impossible.

Heat cycles can be detrimental to tyres

AMKC

That was some race. Is sure it was going to be boring.
Delighted for Sergio Perez to win but devastated for George Russel. Hopefully he gets one more go in the Merc next weekend.
Delighted for Ocon and Renault too getting 2nd.

ItsChecoTime

Wow what a race! Username at its most accurate 8 years after creation. Get Sergio in that RB next season and get Russell in the Merc to see how he and Hamilton compare. Great to see the old Jordan team get a win and absolutely chuffed for Checo

dublinman1990

Oh my god. That was some race to watch for the fans & for the neutral. It was absolutely brilliant.

It had a lot of tension out of there & a lot of mistakes for one world constructor championship team that was not part of the normal script at all.

But holy sh*t. What a horrible day for Mercedes in general. George Russell had really such a brilliant opportunity to win the race today for Mercedes.

When he had that great start against Bottas from lap 1 of the race; there was a lot of faith in him from everyone within the team to get that important victory. But the strategy with putting out the wrong tyres for both himself & Bottas during a double pit stop near the last 20 laps of the race was really painful for both of them. And then with Russell having the front left puncture on his tyre was so heartbreaking to hear as a neutral.

You wouldn't want to be put in a worse place than that moment given it wasn't really the drivers fault to begin with as soon as we hear the words "Lights out & away we go" when they go out to race on that circuit. At least George has kept his points, he got the fastest lap & he is also the F1 driver of the day from all of the fans who had voted for him today when it took place online. He did a superb job for Mercedes today. It is a real shame that he did not translate his level of brilliance on that racetrack into a huge win. But George has made both the team & neutral fans of F1 very proud yesterday. Well done to him.

But it was a huge day for Sergio Perez. He has won his 1st ever F1 race in his motorsport career. It was a wonderful moment for him. The level of emotion being shown on his face when he was told the result in his car & when he was on the podium was something to behold. It felt like that his win was a big miracle even though his future in the sport it's not known to be secure in the sport after the Abu Dhabi GP occurs next weekend.

In the era of Covid; having 2 F1 drivers who are not part of the bigger teams win their 1st ever race this year in their F1 career does mark the start of a big change in the dynamics of how they can win these races within the F1 Hybrid era. It tells you that if any F1 team & driver out there who can make the effort to have a good strategy can have the potential to gain a huge result when they cross over the line over the other teams that will compete in a race. You just have to think of the names who won them this year to date in Gasly & Perez. These results were considered gold dust for all of the smaller teams in the sport up until now. But 2020 can allow them to make some big progress which could net them some more race wins rather than just one race on their CV.

That's not a bad result for any of them considering that F1 was nearly close to getting cancelled this year because of Covid.

With all that in mind; what do you think the final race at Abu Dhabi this year could give to us as fans?

Could George Russell become only the 3rd driver from the usual norm to win a GP this year? That, along with Lance getting pole position in Turkey some weeks ago, would be a remarkable achievement to see in the hybrid era of the sport in general. I would certainly hope that a win happens for Russell if Lewis Hamilton is not able to come back to Abu Dhabi later this week following his recent Covid diagnosis last Monday. I wish him all the best. I hope he gets well soon.

Joeface

all the talk at the front, Pietro Fittipaldi did a decent job . No accidents , no incidents , a clean race on his debut . Not much more could have been asked for. Not a bad for someone who had not driven a Racing car in over eight months .e


Does anyone know if He also gets to race again on Sunday or are they bringing in one of their new signings .

i57dwun4yb1pt8

IMHO , there is no way Mercedes where going to let GR win in that car , the papers would have lit up about Hamiltons skill and brand , hence a perfectly oiled machine suddenly goes rogue for this race and f*cks up all around occur ..
if he drives next weekend and is allowed to win , i'd be very surprised.
call me paranoid, but it was a cluster f*ck out of no where ...and it doesnt smell right.
i think for business reasons he got ' incidented'

and i know where the CT forum is ...

JoeExotic81

The car really is ridiculously ahead of all the others. Your conspiracy theory could well be what happened.

Cork Trucker

Even when the golden boy isn’t there it’s about protecting his image within the team. Russell had the measure of Bottas.

ELM327

Great race
Delighted , devastated and commiserated for Russel.
He disspelled a lot of myths today, from "the merc cant overtake" to "bottas is a competent driver"


Hopefully he'll be in that car again permanently next year

Harika wrote: »

Three wheel mismatch happened to bottas once in spa, was 5 second penalty back then

He did a stint on them though.

h3000

Ramona Tender Schoolgirl wrote: »

IMHO , there is no way Mercedes where going to let GR win in that car , the papers would have lit up about Hamiltons skill and brand , hence a perfectly oiled machine suddenly goes rogue for this race and f*cks up all around occur ..
if he drives next weekend and is allowed to win , i'd be very surprised.
call me paranoid, but it was a cluster f*ck out of no where ...and it doesnt smell right.
i think for business reasons he got ' incidented'

and i know where the CT forum is ...

I don't agree with this at all. I'm sure Mercedes are happy to have a multiple drivers champ in their line up but Mercedes are much more concerned about how good Mercedes are. They constantly want to show how good a car they can develop and how well their team works. They don't want a shambles like that plastered all over the media.

Nah, Mercedes didn’t organise that cock up. They’re all about efficiency and being the best at everything.

H3llR4iser

Ramona Tender Schoolgirl wrote: »

IMHO , there is no way Mercedes where going to let GR win in that car , the papers would have lit up about Hamiltons skill and brand , hence a perfectly oiled machine suddenly goes rogue for this race and f*cks up all around occur ..
if he drives next weekend and is allowed to win , i'd be very surprised.
call me paranoid, but it was a cluster f*ck out of no where ...and it doesnt smell right.
i think for business reasons he got ' incidented'

and i know where the CT forum is ...

While it is absolutely undeniable that the Mercedes team is built around Hamilton and helping him to success for a variety of reasons (popularity, brand, resonance, probably a million more), Russell winning yesterday would've also been a marketing wet dream - the fairytale of the kid who nailed his first chance (a-la-Verstappen).

Gaoth Laidir

ELM327 wrote: »

Great race
Delighted , devastated and commiserated for Russel.
He disspelled a lot of myths today, from "the merc cant overtake" to "bottas is a competent driver"

And still the Bottas-bashing continues. So you're saying he's incompetent? Apart from being guilty of bad starts (he's not alone, Verstappen's the world's worst at times), what exactly could he have done yesterday on cold, used hard tyres, when all around him were on newer mediums?

Whatever about not liking a guy for this reason or that, some of you are completely blind to the fact that he also got rightly done by the pit cock-up, more so than Russell, I would argue. He was sitting stationary in the pit for several seconds longer than the total time it took for Russell to do his whole extra stop. Russell got in and out again on new mediums in less than the time the lads were fluting around with Bottas' car, putting back on his old and cold hards.

BikeRacer

Where exactly was Hamilton when JFK was shot?

El_Duderino 09

Ramona Tender Schoolgirl wrote: »

IMHO , there is no way Mercedes where going to let GR win in that car , the papers would have lit up about Hamiltons skill and brand , hence a perfectly oiled machine suddenly goes rogue for this race and f*cks up all around occur ..
if he drives next weekend and is allowed to win , i'd be very surprised.
call me paranoid, but it was a cluster f*ck out of no where ...and it doesnt smell right.
i think for business reasons he got ' incidented'

and i know where the CT forum is ...

This is outrageous. Not within an ass’s roar off reality.

Zookey123

The Bottas hate is real on this thread. Can't we just be impressed by Georges performance yesterday. He is without doubt one of the paciest guys on the grid. Bottas has been very unfortunate this season. Rotten luck all the way through yet still scoring consistent points. I wonder how many people bashed Riciardo when Max won on his debut? Was he also useless when he got outpaced for the majority of that season?

Lawlesz

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is outrageous. Not within an ass’s roar off reality.

The idea that Mercedes care more about Hamiltons reputation than their own :pac:

That was a monumental cockup yesterday, and the idea that they would organise that just so Lewis looks good beggars belief. They have taken a hammering from it in the media, and they basically for a brief moment look like idiots. Who would really bring that on themselves

weisses

Zookey123 wrote: »

The Bottas hate is real on this thread. Can't we just be impressed by Georges performance yesterday. He is without doubt one of the paciest guys on the grid. Bottas has been very unfortunate this season. Rotten luck all the way through yet still scoring consistent points. I wonder how many people bashed Riciardo when Max won on his debut? Was he also useless when he got outpaced for the majority of that season?

Bottas is the perfect number 2 driver.. Nothing more nothing less ...

His performance doesn't reflect the fact he drives the fastest car by far on the track.

And got beaten Yesterday by a driver who didnt even seem to fit in the Merc

After the first stop he was 9 seconds behind Russel.

Vic_08

Zookey123 wrote: »

The Bottas hate is real on this thread. Can't we just be impressed by Georges performance yesterday. He is without doubt one of the paciest guys on the grid.

And you base that on what? He has beaten 2 poor Williams teammates and now Bottas, all this tells us is that he is quicker than a man with one functioning arm, a pay driver and Hamilton's rear guard.

Zookey123 wrote: »

Bottas has been very unfortunate this season. Rotten luck all the way through yet still scoring consistent points.

Give over, he has been thoroughly bested by Hamilton on the track, yes he had a couple of issues that probably would have cost the championship anyway but even with Lewis not taking part in the final 2 races he will end up 100 points adrift.

Not once has he shown any on-track ability to take a win from Lewis, nor the off-track mindset to get under Lewis' skin the way Rosberg so effectively did.

Zookey123 wrote: »

I wonder how many people bashed Riciardo when Max won on his debut? Was he also useless when he got outpaced for the majority of that season?

Nobody suggested Ricciardo was useless because it didn't happen, Vertappen only edged Ricciardo in qualifying towards the end of their last season and in races Ricciardo consistently showed better ability to finish without incidents.

namloc1980

Ramona Tender Schoolgirl wrote: »

IMHO , there is no way Mercedes where going to let GR win in that car , the papers would have lit up about Hamiltons skill and brand , hence a perfectly oiled machine suddenly goes rogue for this race and f*cks up all around occur ..
if he drives next weekend and is allowed to win , i'd be very surprised.
call me paranoid, but it was a cluster f*ck out of no where ...and it doesnt smell right.
i think for business reasons he got ' incidented'

and i know where the CT forum is ...

Did Mercedes arrange for Jack Aitken to have an incident as well causing the SC??

ELM327

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

And still the Bottas-bashing continues. So you're saying he's incompetent? Apart from being guilty of bad starts (he's not alone, Verstappen's the world's worst at times), what exactly could he have done yesterday on cold, used hard tyres, when all around him were on newer mediums?

Whatever about not liking a guy for this reason or that, some of you are completely blind to the fact that he also got rightly done by the pit cock-up, more so than Russell, I would argue. He was sitting stationary in the pit for several seconds longer than the total time it took for Russell to do his whole extra stop. Russell got in and out again on new mediums in less than the time the lads were fluting around with Bottas' car, putting back on his old and cold hards.

He was five seconds behind in p2 before any of the subsequent messing.
That's 5 seconds behind a guy who had 3 days in a car he doesnt fit in.

JeffKenna

Lawlesz wrote: »

The idea that Mercedes care more about Hamiltons reputation than their own :pac:

That was a monumental cockup yesterday, and the idea that they would organise that just so Lewis looks good beggars belief. They have taken a hammering from it in the media, and they basically for a brief moment look like idiots. Who would really bring that on themselves

Plus forgetting the cock up, I think a win was there for Russell if he hasn't got that last puncture. No way that was planned!

NATLOR

Not a chance Russell is getting anywhere that team as long as Hamilton is there. Bottas is the ideal wingman, he is no threat, does what he's told, scores enough points to secure constructors title and is obviously happy to be in a car that gives him the occasional win, why would Mercedes want to change that

Don't subscribe to the theory that they purposely blew Russells chances of winning as it was plain to see he had the race in the bag regardless of what happened
The fact that a albeit decent driver can produce that sort of performance first time in the car reinforces the fact that it is so far ahead of anything else on the grid and has been for years, Hamilton's achievements are greatly diminished for that reason IMO

ELM327

NATLOR wrote: »

Not a chance Russell is getting anywhere that team as long as Hamilton is there. Bottas is the ideal wingman, he is no threat, does what he's told, scores enough points to secure constructors title and is obviously happy to be in a car that gives him the occasional win, why would Mercedes want to change that

Don't subscribe to the theory that they purposely blew Russells chances of winning as it was plain to see he had the race in the bag regardless of what happened
The fact that a albeit decent driver can produce that sort of performance first time in the car reinforces the fact that it is so far ahead of anything else on the grid and has been for years, Hamilton's achievements are greatly diminished for that reason IMO

Exactly, if you look at the ferraris for instance and compare schumachers performances to salo, badoer, fisichella etc none of them step in and come close to winning afair

kksaints

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly, if you look at the ferraris for instance and compare schumachers performances to salo, badoer, fisichella etc none of them step in and come close to winning afair

Salo would have won the German Grand prix in 1999 if he hadn't handed the victory to Irvine under team orders.

weisses

If anything Russels performance had an impact on Hamiltons contract negotiations

ELM327

Is that representative of all the step in performances though?
If you take the median of all finishing positions by replacements it's probably in the double digits

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

If anything Russels performance had an impact on Hamiltons contract negotiations

For sure.
No sense paying Lewis when there's a guy on 1% of lewis's salary able to do the same thing.

afatbollix

Hamilton was 22 when he got his first race with Mclaren. GR is 22 at the mo. He has time, But I do know he could push Hamilton next year if given the chance in the right car. It would make next year an amazing season to watch. It would be nip and tuck, None of this 5 laps flat out and then turn down the engines that Merc do at the mo.


If he was in the right car we could have another era dominated by one driver.


As they say, the best drivers get the best cars and GR has proved he should be upfront.

ELM327

I'm surprised actually that there's no talk at all of him going to red bull.
I'd prefer him over Perez or Albon or Hulk.

quokula

NATLOR wrote: »

Not a chance Russell is getting anywhere that team as long as Hamilton is there. Bottas is the ideal wingman, he is no threat, does what he's told, scores enough points to secure constructors title and is obviously happy to be in a car that gives him the occasional win, why would Mercedes want to change that

Don't subscribe to the theory that they purposely blew Russells chances of winning as it was plain to see he had the race in the bag regardless of what happened
The fact that a albeit decent driver can produce that sort of performance first time in the car reinforces the fact that it is so far ahead of anything else on the grid and has been for years, Hamilton's achievements are greatly diminished for that reason IMO

Precisely. The race just confirmed what I, and most people with a bit of knowledge of the sport, already knew - you can take the driver who is dead last in the championship with zero points, put him in Hamilton's car with zero time to adjust to the car, and he can still win easily barring the pit crew messing everything up.

Anyone who's been following F1 for a long time and saw how Hamilton performed in the past without a dominant car, or how he performed when he had an above average team-mate like Rosberg, knew full well that all the hyperbole around him was exactly that and the only thing you he's had to do to win in that Merc is be faster than Bottas, which most drivers could do easily.

I'm surprised so many people seem shocked by this. I'm also surprised about all the talk about how Russell might replace Bottas now - not a chance Merc will do that as long as Hamilton is still driving. Bottas was chosen precisely because he's not a threat, that's why he keeps getting renewed despite all sorts of drivers from Alonso down being available over the years.

I'm sure Russell might help them in their salary negotiations with Hamilton, but Lewis is probably still worth more to them in marketing than he costs, thanks to the sycophantic media treatment he gets and his celebrity value, so they probably won't replace him just because there's a cheaper driver available who is just as fast.

Gaoth Laidir

ELM327 wrote: »

He was five seconds behind in p2 before any of the subsequent messing.
That's 5 seconds behind a guy who had 3 days in a car he doesnt fit in.

Do you now judge performance on where drivers are 1/4 of the way through a race? If so, then Lewis would have lost so many races.

People here were hoping all week that Russell would beat Bottas, but then Bottas went and put it on pole and the haters went very quiet.

Bottas has a bad start and falls into 5th at turn 1, but quickly regains 2nd position (the haters mentioned nothing about that).

He keeps the gap at a few seconds up to the pit fiasco, where he lost more than one pit interval on Russell (the haters also refuse to acknowledge that either; where are you, murpheyebass?)

Got passed by several drivers on fresh mediums in his first few laps back out on old cold hards, but still managed to put in at least one fastest lap before the end. Again, nothing about that either.

Is Bottas the best driver out there? No. Is he useless, incompetent? Absolutely not. Has he made some mistakes? Certainly. Did LeClerc do so too? Big time, and got a 3-grid penalty and 2 points on his licence for it. Is he "incompetent"? No. Did Verstappen mess up in that incident? Yes, by his own admission.

At Bottas' time at Merc he's had 5 technical failures to Hamilton's 1. He's had several other bad-luck events, such as his puncture in Baku while leading or the blow-out in Silverstone a few laps earlier than Lewis, who was damn lucky to rim it home with 5 seconds to spare.

Be fair in your criticism, at least.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.monday-morning-debrief-the-smoking-gun-that-cost-mercedes-and-russell-a-win.69mT5F9GNGoHSZUZzJNtVZ.html

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

For sure.
No sense paying Lewis when there's a guy on 1% of lewis's salary able to do the same thing.

Yeah but they don’t want Lewis driving for Ref Bull either. They want to win the championships. Lewis probably would have won for Ferrari in 2018 and been competitive last year.

I’d say they mighta allow Lewis and Russell to race each other in 2022 as Lewis will be coming towards the end of the road.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

...
Anyone who's been following F1 for a long time and saw how Hamilton performed in the past without a dominant car, or how he performed when he had an above average team-mate like Rosberg, knew full well that all the hyperbole around him was exactly that and the only thing you he's had to do to win in that Merc is be faster than Bottas, which most drivers could do easily.
...

You reckon Bottas is below the median in the field? I can’t say I agree. I think he’s a solid driver. Nothing special but solid and that’s enough to be top half. I think his last few races have been below his usual standard. He was on great form at the start of the year but not so good at the moment.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

I'm surprised so many people seem shocked by this. I'm also surprised about all the talk about how Russell might replace Bottas now - not a chance Merc will do that as long as Hamilton is still driving. Bottas was chosen precisely because he's not a threat, that's why he keeps getting renewed despite all sorts of drivers from Alonso down being available over the years..

So why did Mercedes try to sign Russell for 2021 earlier this year then?

The reason Bottas is criticised so much is because he's the only person who is in any position to challenge Hamilton and he's proven he's nowhere near that level. Rosberg who few consider God-tier pushed Hamilton, kept seasons tight and in-the-air and beat Hamilton a few times. Button again, not God-Tier, kept Hamilton honest beat him in one season out of 3. Bottas comes in and all the hope has to focus on the clown-show that is Ferrari.

To say Bottas was on good form at the start of the season, he beat Hamilton in the first race then Hamilton beat him in 6 in a row. Bottas beat Hamilton 3 times out of 15 races this season.

As for Mercedes maybe not wanting Russell to win; as an organisation they're looking past Hamilton now. I don't think they're expecting more than one season from him at most. I'd be disappointed if they don't take Russell on for next season but I'd imagine he's pretty much nailed on for 2022.

ELM327

Maybe lewis will be given "das boot"

JoeExotic81

Was such a buzz watching Russell pass Bottas the second time though. Great moment.

quokula

Anjobe wrote: »

So why did Mercedes try to sign Russell for 2021 earlier this year then?

They actually tried? And what, Russell turned them down or Williams stopped them? Is that what you think?

ELM327

quokula wrote: »

They actually tried? And what, Russell turned them down or Williams stopped them? Is that what you think?

It was alluded to multiple times on the weekend coverage that williams had an iron clad contract for '21 with George and rebuked the idea of him going to the mercs for next year.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You reckon Bottas is below the median in the field? I can’t say I agree. I think he’s a solid driver. Nothing special but solid and that’s enough to be top half. I think his last few races have been below his usual standard. He was on great form at the start of the year but not so good at the moment.

He's well below median, I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when looking at how he's performed in that car. Whenever Mercedes finally do drop him, other teams won't be falling over themselves to hire him.

quokula

ELM327 wrote: »

It was alluded to multiple times on the weekend coverage that williams had an iron clad contract for '21 with George and rebuked the idea of him going to the mercs for next year.

A few weeks ago it wasn't even certain that Russell would have a drive next year. And his iron clad contract didn't stop Mercedes poaching him the second they actually wanted him at this race.

It's nothing but posturing, it's blatantly obvious Mercedes have no interest in replacing Bottas as long as Hamilton is driving, they've had multiple opportunities every year.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

He's well below median, I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when looking at how he's performed in that car. Whenever Mercedes finally do drop him, other teams won't be falling over themselves to hire him.

I can’t agree. He’s solid. That’s more than can be said for most of the grid.

It would be fun to see who are in the top third of the grid, bottom third and middle third.

Middle third would be very difficult to figure which fall in the top half and bottom half.

Top Dog

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would be fun to see who are in the top third of the grid, bottom third and middle third.

Current contracted drivers

Top third - Hamilton, Riccardo, LeClerc, Verstappen, Russell, Perez
Middle third - Gasley, Sainz, Norris, Bottas, Ocon, Vettel, Stroll
Bottom third - Lattiffi, Giovanazzi, Kvyat, Raikkonen, Grojean, Albon, Magnusson

Zookey123

Top Dog wrote: »

Current contracted drivers

Top third - Hamilton, Riccardo, LeClerc, Verstappen, Russell, Perez
Middle third - Gasley, Sainz, Norris, Bottas, Ocon, Vettel, Stroll
Bottom third - Lattiffi, Giovanazzi, Kvyat, Raikkonen, Grojean, Albon, Magnusson

I agree with most of that list. I do think it's slightly harsh on 4 time world champion Vettel. Ferrari have just been abysmal this season and Vettel has bared the brunt of their downfall. Also Albon should be middle tier. It's not easy being second driver to Max and Gasly didn't do much better at red bull. I would demote Ocon too. Apart from one or two good results he has been usually a disappointment. And Daniel Ric has shown that car can be consistently on the podium. How many seasons has this guy came second to his team-mates now? Pretty much every full season. Still he somehow has a seat for next year.

muckwarrior

Ooh, I like this game

Top third - Hamilton, Riccardo, LeClerc, Verstappen, Russell
Middle third - Gasley, Sainz, Norris, Bottas, Ocon, Vettel, Perez
Bottom third - Lattiffi, Giovanazzi, Kvyat, Raikkonen, Grojean, Albon, Magnusson, Stroll

One or 2 there, such as Ocon, that would be hovering in between levels, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

Mitch Connor

quokula wrote: »

He's well below median, I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when looking at how he's performed in that car. Whenever Mercedes finally do drop him, other teams won't be falling over themselves to hire him.

Why would Merc pay Hamilton and Bottas what they earn, when they could apparently pay a fraction to anyone else on the grid and get 1-2s all the time anyway?