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Why not pay the student nurses?!

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    #272
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    weisses wrote: »
    Students in year 1 to 3 are not supposed to be paid while on placement in year 4 when you go on a 36 weeks internship you get paid something .. I wouldn't call it a wage though

    Do you know how long the placements are in year 1 to 3?


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    #273
    ma003
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ma003


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I actually don't disagree with it being a Degree programme but I think it could be designed a lot better. Honestly, I think both Nursingand Medicine should be Post Grad courses of shorter duration. Get the med students on placement in a similar vein to Nursing Students. Its home both are fine in the States, for example.

    Totally agree ! Especially placements for medical students should be way more practical based! Especially the 4 year grad program where most people have already done a degree! Bit ridiculous that a lot of training for doctors is done in the intern year after college is done. Probably down to not having the resources though to have students everywhere and to have people responsible for them more than anything!


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    #274
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Every word true - and precisely why nursing should never have overloaded it’s new intake with a degree when apprenticeship style on the job training was so much better.

    Unfortunately it's not as black and white .. The nursing profession changed considerably over the years with more responsibilities put on nurses. On many occasions i have seen doctors asking advice from nurses, there are also many nursing specialty jobs which require a post grad level of training ...


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    #275
    ma003
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ma003


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Do you know how long the placements are in year 1 to 3?

    At least half the year I think so they might be 4-6 weeks then lectures for 3 then back on placement


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    #276
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭combat14


    OP because it is far more important to pay the perpetually unemployed and work shy who havent put in one cv for a job in 40 years but all the while sit in free houses and have everything handed to them on a plate .. hard to have money left for student nurses who are bursting them selves when that is happening ..


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    #277
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Do you know how long the placements are in year 1 to 3?

    13 weeks each in year 1 and 2 and 18 weeks in year 3


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    #278
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I actually don't disagree with it being a Degree programme but I think it could be designed a lot better. Honestly, I think both Nursingand Medicine should be Post Grad courses of shorter duration. Get the med students on placement in a similar vein to Nursing Students. Its home both are fine in the States, for example.

    I know someone who teaches on a PG theatre nursing programme - they are very much needed and give additional bespoke skills as needed.


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    #279
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    What do you know of the academic demands of a BSc in Nursing? Its a full degree course with everything that entails - essays, exams, research projects etc. Often deadlines are set mid-placement where you are far away from resources. Not to mention that the breadth of Nursing means you are in lectures all day long while in college . Ananstomy and physiology, bio-chrmistry, pharmacology, law, economics, sociology, health related social policy, nursing theory, nursing practice.....I haven't covered them all. Most students have time during the day to get some work done outside of lectures, student nurses don't. Your attitude demonstrates exactly why Nursing as a profession chose to switch to degree programmes for qualifications. Despite decades of excellent scholarship and research, Nursing is still not taken seriously as a profession.Even now, you have demonstrated that their degree is somehow regarded lesser than that of other Health professions.

    What do you know about the demand of every other course? You were the one who made the claim about nursing having "About double the workload of any other degree course."

    I have complete respect for what nurses do. I don't see how you could being insulted by me thinking other courses could have higher academic demands than nuring. I did a health science degree myself and think there are loads of other courses more academically demanding than what I did too.


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    #280
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,388 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    What do you know about the demand of every other course? You were the one who made the claim about nursing having "About double the workload of any other degree course."

    I have complete respect for what nurses do. I don't see how you could being insulted by me thinking other courses could have higher academic demands than nuring. I did a health science degree myself and think there are loads of other courses more academically demanding than what I did too.

    Thry are basically coupling a fulltime academic course with the previous fulltime practice base course. What other courses do that?


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    #281
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Here is a twitter description of one student nurse's experience

    https://twitter.com/_aimeeoneill_/status/1334858325280886784


    Doesnt sound much different to pre 2002 when it was apparently "an apprenticeship" except we were paid as student nurses.


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    #282
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,221 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Typical far left statement.

    Shake the mythical money tree and keep the taxes high.

    What are you talking about?
    Paying student nurses 350 euro a week for the last 10 months would be less than 0.004% of the HSE budget for the year.

    Taxes in Ireland have always been high.
    If taxes go up when expenditure increases, then by rights it should go down when expenditure decreases.
    Which it doesn't, which means your analogy is wrong.


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    #283
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    There are too many bosses and long serving staff in the HSE earning 80/90/100K plus salaries not to mention their defined benefit pensions . Wages in ireland for those individuals are breaking the system . No money left for student nurses


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    #284
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    weisses wrote: »
    Very difficult to asses Students in college here are from all over Ireland ... My own situation is a 140 km roundtrip daily at least with the furthest possible placement 150 km away



    Yes I am aware I spend thousands and that is before going on placement



    Why would I tell lies?? We were told there are hundreds of places to be allocated each and every time and they could not take into account peoples preferences. Which to me makes perfect sense



    Uhh no .. Other circumstances could be a mature nursing student with 3 kids looking for a place closer to home for instance


    Loads of people apply for nursing, some get it and some don't. Starting a course and then complaining because it is exactly as described doesn't make sense to me. Everyone is made aware of the T&C before the course.

    Nurses move all around the country every year. So what are you saying a full-time nurse can't move between hospitals because from my knowledge this happens all the time.

    My advice is don't sign up for a course if you don't understand the commitment you are making.


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    #285
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    khalessi wrote: »
    Here is a twitter description of one student nurse's experience

    https://twitter.com/_aimeeoneill_/status/1334858325280886784


    Doesnt sound much different to pre 2002 when it was apparently "an apprenticeship" except we were paid as student nurses.

    I think you missed my point that before the degree student nurses were better off and were paid while learning.

    My dad was cared for by amongst others a student nurse. Woman was amazing, not a bad word said here.


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    #286
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    I think you missed my point that before the degree student nurses were better off and were paid while learning.

    My dad was cared for by amongst others a student nurse. Woman was amazing, not a bad word said here.

    No I got it. I placed that tweet up there for anyone who says the students nurses are merely observing on the wards, they are not, they are working as a proper nurse, doing practically everything a qualified nurse does and thus deserve to be paid properly for it.


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    #287
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    khalessi wrote: »
    No I got it. I placed that tweet up there for anyone who says the students nurses are merely observing on the wards, they are not, they are working as a proper nurse, doing practically everything a qualified nurse does and thus deserve to be paid properly for it.

    The hse are leaving themselves open to medical malpractice lawsuits in that case. Unqualified workers.

    There is no way this is happening


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    #288
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,388 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    I think you missed my point that before the degree student nurses were better off and were paid while learning.

    My dad was cared for by amongst others a student nurse. Woman was amazing, not a bad word said here.

    They came out with an inferior qualification. Why shouldn't nurses be educated to degree standard? What is it about Nursing that makes you think it didn't require the same academic thoroughness as Medicine, Occupational Therapy, Physiotherapy etc? What is wrong is the structure of the course, not the fact that they are now educated to the same standard as every other Health profession.


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    #289
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    The hse are leaving themselves open to medical malpractice lawsuits in that case. Unqualified workers.

    There is no way this is happening

    Student nurses have always worked on wards, even back in my day. Only now there is a more academic side to compliment the ward work. They still learn all the skills necessary for working on the ward. The difference is they are not recompensed properly for this work. Someone working a 12 hour shift should be recompensed properly whether it is a placement or not. You obviously dont understand the inner workings of a hospital.


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    #290
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    The hse are leaving themselves open to medical malpractice lawsuits in that case. Unqualified workers.

    There is no way this is happening

    It depends how you quantify work - this wee student nurse who tended for my dad was sitting with him and calming him as he didn’t want the oxygen mask on him.

    She was running round doing what the unkind might call “menial” tasks to free up the qualified nurses to administer meds etc.

    Yet she contributed to my dad’s care before he passed away. Should she be paid the same as a qualified nurse ? Clearly not. Should they be paid for what they do when not studying ?

    Hell yes.


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    #291
    The Continental Op
    Registered Users Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    I think the answer is in the question.

    Why not pay students? WTF why would you?

    Why not pay student NURSES? They are doing the job of nursing people so again Hell Yes.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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    #292
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Solutionking wrote: »
    Loads of people apply for nursing, some get it and some don't. Starting a course and then complaining because it is exactly as described doesn't make sense to me. Everyone is made aware of the T&C before the course.

    Nurses move all around the country every year. So what are you saying a full-time nurse can't move between hospitals because from my knowledge this happens all the time.

    My advice is don't sign up for a course if you don't understand the commitment you are making.

    Is this incoherent waffle aimed at me ?? If so I would suggest you go over your own posts and then point out where I dont agree with the T&C for instance

    My advice to you is to try and comprehend what is said before typing a reply


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    #293
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    It depends how you quantify work - this wee student nurse who tended for my dad was sitting with him and calming him as he didn’t want the oxygen mask on him.

    She was running round doing what the unkind might call “menial” tasks to free up the qualified nurses to administer meds etc.

    Yet she contributed to my dad’s care before he passed away. Should she be paid the same as a qualified nurse ? Clearly not. Should they be paid for what they do when not studying ?

    Hell yes.

    She was not studying .. She was doing a nursing job when she looked after your dad .. Part of what she was doing is described in the link below

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0020748918301032

    Your dad was lucky in having a nursing student looking after him the way she did ... Although specialling is a nursing job (depending on the kind of specialling), Nurses simply don't have the time doing this task.


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    #294
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    weisses wrote: »
    She was not studying .. She was doing a nursing job when she looked after your dad .. Part of what she was doing is described in the link below

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0020748918301032

    Your dad was lucky in having a nursing student looking after him the way she did ... Although specialling is a nursing job (depending on the kind of specialling), Nurses simply don't have the time doing this task.

    Quite agree, I believe nurses should be paid for the work they do in hospitals when not studying.


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    #295
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Solutionking wrote: »
    No she isn't, she is a care assistants job.
    Student nurses do not do fully qualified nurses tasks.

    You are telling a few porkies on here and you are actually insulting the work of fully qualified nurses.

    How dare you, how absolutely ****ing dare you.


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    #296
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,221 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    How dare you, how absolutely ****ing dare you.

    Seems Solutionking was quick to delete that little piece of ignorance :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #297
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Solutionking View Post
    No she isn't, she is a care assistants job.
    Student nurses do not do fully qualified nurses tasks.


    Could you define what a qualified nurses duties are please?


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    #298
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Quite agree, I believe nurses should be paid for the work they do in hospitals when not studying.

    Just to quote the rules we need to follow and to show again Im not telling porkies
    Year 2 – 3 students are permitted to special a patient for a short period of time (i.e. relief of breaks),once judged competent to do so by the RN who retains accountable for the care provided. This should only occur as part of a rotation, and must not be the sole responsibility of the student.


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    #299
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    khalessi wrote: »
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Solutionking View Post
    No she isn't, she is a care assistants job.
    Student nurses do not do fully qualified nurses tasks.


    Could you define what a qualified nurses duties are please?


    It is quoted 2 posts up. Why did you feel the need to type it out? :confused:
    I deleted because I couldn't be bothered .

    As I said, the T&C's are laid out clear before people apply to be student nurses, if they had a problem they should not have applied. Plenty of people applied and didn't get the chance to go on the course.


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    #300
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Solutionking wrote: »
    As I said, the T&C's are laid out clear before people apply to be student nurses, if they had a problem they should not have applied. Plenty of people applied and didn't get the chance to go on the course.

    Again .... Incorrect
    Please stop embarrassing yourself


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    #301
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Solutionking wrote: »
    It is quoted 2 posts up. Why did you feel the need to type it out? :confused:
    I deleted because I couldn't be bothered .

    As I said, the T&C's are laid out clear before people apply to be student nurses, if they had a problem they should not have applied. Plenty of people applied and didn't get the chance to go on the course.

    So basically you cannot list off what a nurse does on a ward, thanks.


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