Why not pay the student nurses?!

ChikiChiki

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Presume when they all signed up to the course- it was clearly stipulated the placement is unpaid? So why would that just suddenly change- fanciful notion if ever I heard one. If you did t like that aspect yih had the choice to do something else.
As for not being allowed work part time- I had a friend doing Nursing they worked as much as they could p/t as a care assistant in a home- so I’ve no idea where the idea they can’t work came from

Idiotic post. Truly ignorant. Have you missed all that has been going on this year?

mvt

Apologises if this has been already mentioned but when I was going through my four year apprenticeship as an electrician I was paid from the get go- a percentage each year of the full rate.

Have no idea why it is not the same for nurses or indeed any other job where you are training.

It's a poor reflection on our society.

Wanderer78

mvt wrote: »

Apologises if this has been already mentioned but when I was going through my four year apprenticeship as an electrician I was paid from the get go- a percentage each year of the full rate.

Have no idea why it is not the same for nurses or indeed any other job where you are training.

It's a poor reflection on our society.

why not pay all trainees more, its good for the economy, as it means more money in circulation

doc22

Geuze wrote: »

All PS payscales can be found, if you look for them.

Yes and always quoted at bottom of scale and excluding allowances(you've no idea what your average PS worker receives. teacher unions went one step further and used part time pay to prop up everyone's pay. The government copped on abit and then included educational and S&S allowances which near all teachers receive as part on core pay.

Damien360

mvt wrote: »

Apologises if this has been already mentioned but when I was going through my four year apprenticeship as an electrician I was paid from the get go- a percentage each year of the full rate.

Have no idea why it is not the same for nurses or indeed any other job where you are training.

It's a poor reflection on our society.

That is set in stone as trade rates for apprenticeship and was negotiated by unions (even if you are not in one). Student nurses have never been paid and their unions have enough clout to make a decision like the plumber/electrician unions. I’m curious why a similar scale was never used for nurses. That would be a fair compromise.

Student nurses do the same work as full qualified nurses but do it on orders. They don’t make the decisions. Not that different from trade apprentice.

Triangle

Ireland2020 wrote: »

Simom Harris wanted them to face financial penalties for trying to get paid properly last year

March said all student nurses will be paid for the Duration of Covid

Tweets all during Covid about the great work they are doing

3rd Dec Votes against paying student nurses

This is the same man who caused the last Govt to collapse and has been giving another Ministerial role

It's some country

You have half facts there, the bill wasn't just about pay. There was travel, accommodation, working times - it wasnt just paying them.
It had huge further implications than just student nurses.
But let's not let that get in the way of righteous anger (again)

Idbatterim

Wont pay them for the hours. Will let people get pup of e350 if they were earking e100 a week before losing the job, laughable!

weisses

Right ....

Just my personal opinion on the whole thing, personal situations differ for anyone just giving my own experience

I am a mature student nurse, not in college accommodation.

I knew before starting the 4 years what I would get as an "income" and what it would cost me. Because of the pandemic We got offered work from April to late August to work as HCA's for the HSE. Anyone who lost their income can avail of the PUP.

Just finished a 6 week placement and loved it, learned loads and did not felt exploited ever during my placements ... Its full on, but that is what nursing is, I find it rewarding that we as student nurses can take some of the heavy workload away from the Nurses on the wards and at the same time only doing what you are allowed to do.

I fully agree with the fact student nurses should not be out of pocket because of the pandemic, NOT ONE CENT, But I honestly cannot find a valid reason for the demands of getting paid for placements, maybe I am missing something here. I think you get 50 euro for a week, its peanuts but something everyone knew before starting this degree course.

What I think could be a good way forward is that when you start your Nursing Degree study every student nurse is offered a contract as a HCA within the HSE. You are then able to work weekends and Holidays plus the summer break. Its a win win scenario

Just to be clear again. This is just my 2 cents And my own opinion based on my situation only

Ireland2020

Im hearing the student unions are going to advise us not to do any activities in the hospital that are outside what we are meant to do in placement and under no circumstances are we to do extra hours.
A email will be sent Monday

jc11

purifol0 wrote: »

And yet the average salary of a nurse is north of 58K! You can bet it will be higher this year.

🀣🀣🀣🀣

Sorry, but that's a load of balls.. maybe a nurse manager

weisses

Ireland2020 wrote: »

Im hearing the student unions are going to advise us not to do any activities in the hospital that are outside what we are meant to do in placement and under no circumstances are we to do extra hours.
A email will be sent Monday

I never heard of a student nurse in year 1-3 are asked to do extra hours .. I know for a fact CPC's keep a close eye on this. As for activities outside our scope ? That is clearly defined and I was never expected to do something I felt not comfortable with anyway.

Padre_Pio

weisses wrote: »

Right ....

Just my personal opinion on the whole thing, personal situations differ for anyone just giving my own experience

Just to be clear again. This is just my 2 cents And my own opinion based on my situation only

Thanks for your opinion, I'm happy your placement was everything you wanted it to be.
You're right that everyone was aware that placements are unpaid when they start the course.

My own view (and this goes beyond nursing) is that people should be paid a fair wage for their labour. You are contributing to patient care, you're doing work that would otherwise be done by a fully qualified nurse. Maybe you're not as fast or proficient but you're doing it and you should leave the hospital knowing that you're work is appreciated and rewarded.

tjhook

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why not pay all trainees more, its good for the economy, as it means more money in circulation

Yes. But before that, they should start with major cuts to income tax. That would give people far more cash to send circulating around the economy.

Wanderer78

tjhook wrote: »

Yes. But before that, they should start with major cuts to income tax. That would give people far more cash to send circulating around the economy.

just give people the money, its much faster and circulates quicker, the economy needs money fast, reducing taxes doesnt increase the money supply, borrowing does, its how we create more money, reducing taxes just increases the velocity of the money supply, even though this is also needed....

Caquas

tjhook wrote: »

Yes. But before that, they should start with major cuts to income tax. That would give people far more cash to send circulating around the economy.

Now you have it! Cut taxes and pay everybody what they want. The economy will steam ahead. We can borrow for free, thanks to the ECB.

What could possibly go wrong 😑

Listening to politicians, it sounds as though they only just discovered there were such things as student nurses.

The real scandal is not that student nurses don’t get paid while on work placements but that they are used to do the work which qualified nurses are paid to do. But no one in the Oireachtas can say that.

Wanderer78

Caquas wrote: »

Now you have it! Cut taxes and pay everybody what they want. The economy will steam ahead. We can borrow for free, thanks to the ECB.

What could possibly go wrong 😑

Listening to politicians, it sounds as though they only just discovered there were such things as student nurses.

The real scandal is not that student nurses don’t get paid while on work placements but that they are used to do the work which qualified nurses are paid to do. But no one in the Oireachtas can say that.

id imagine every single human would want as much money as they can get, this is reckless borrowing, reckless lending, and would more than likely lead to a catastrophic economic crash, how about just give people what they 'need'!

weisses

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Thanks for your opinion, I'm happy your placement was everything you wanted it to be.
You're right that everyone was aware that placements are unpaid when they start the course.

My own view (and this goes beyond nursing) is that people should be paid a fair wage for their labour. You are contributing to patient care, you're doing work that would otherwise be done by a fully qualified nurse. Maybe you're not as fast or proficient but you're doing it and you should leave the hospital knowing that you're work is appreciated and rewarded.

I have nothing against a proper compensation for placement, compensation as t stands now is ridiculous also including travel expenses, accommodation when on placement, etc etc. I feel rewarded leaving the ward after a 12 hour shift, as a student nurse you are in the perfect position to spend just that bit of extra time with a patient which is priceless (specially during the pandemic) ... Im exhausted driving home but still I know i made a bit of a difference to people which is very valuable to me, I know that fact alone doesn't bring food on the table but still.

khalessi

weisses wrote: »

I have nothing against a proper compensation for placement, compensation as t stands now is ridiculous also including travel expenses, accommodation when on placement, etc etc. I feel rewarded leaving the ward after a 12 hour shift, as a student nurse you are in the perfect position to spend just that bit of extra time with a patient which is priceless (specially during the pandemic) ... Im exhausted driving home but still I know i made a bit of a difference to people which is very valuable to me, I know that fact alone doesn't bring food on the table but still.

As you said your circumstances are your own, but some student nurses are renting in lets say Drogheda and can be sent somewhere very distant for their placement. Not all placements are in the one hospital.

walshb

Nothing more than the usual opposition and grandstanders and populists shouting the odds, safely from the sidelines. Because they will never have the passion to actually govern and make key decisions..

Students are students. This has been the way for years now..

It would be great to be able to open the chequebook and pay all students in all sectors, but it works not be financially prudent or economical..

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why not pay all trainees more, its good for the economy, as it means more money in circulation

You are assuming here that the Govt expenditure multiplier is >1.

You are assuming that if both taxes and Govt exp rise by 100, then national income will rise by more than 100.

That may be the case.

However, note that Ireland has a poor history of doing that, think of 1973-1986.

We tried fiscal expansions, and got short-term economic growth, yes, but were left with a huge public debt.

Also, note that if you increase spending by 100 to pay students a wage, then taxes must rise by 100. The higher taxes cause the economy to slowdown.

https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Ireland%E2%80%99s-Spending-Multipliers-Final.pdf

Our findings suggest that there is some evidence of positive, significant
initial impacts on economic activity associated with fiscal policy, yet
these effects disappear over the longer term. The estimated impacts are
wide-ranging and uncertain, with limited evidence of positive impacts on
the economy from government consumption as a whole. Within this, we
find broadly negative—though insignificant effects—from public sector
wages.


Read that final sentence - it contradicts your suggestion.

Higher public service wages have negative, albeit insignificant effects.

So paying students, or giving the PS a pay rise will not cause long-run growth in GDP.

joseywhales

I think the perspective is off here, technically these students are receiving training in the hospital(and imo should be more assertive about getting it rather than being treated as tryouts), they are not responsible for patient care. In fact the hospital would receive some funding for providing training, it makes no sense that they would pay the students. Its not different with doctor training in medical school. These hospitals wouldn't take on student nurses if they didn't receive something, let alone pay them. In this case the student is the client and the hospital must provide them with training in return for money.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

You are assuming here that the Govt expenditure multiplier is >1.

You are assuming that if both taxes and Govt exp rise by 100, then national income will rise by more than 100.

That may be the case.

However, note that Ireland has a poor history of doing that, think of 1973-1986.

We tried fiscal expansions, and got short-term economic growth, yes, but were left with a huge public debt.

Also, note that if you increase spending by 100 to pay students a wage, then taxes must rise by 100. The higher taxes cause the economy to slowdown.

https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Ireland%E2%80%99s-Spending-Multipliers-Final.pdf

the world has moved on, if pay is increased, its very likely this money will make its way straight back into the economy as people spend it, increasing the velocity of the money supply, of course some may sit in bank accounts, with zero velocity, and some may go towards servicing debts, destroying the money in effect, but theres no harm in keeping our private debt levels under control, as we all know what happens when that goes up in smoke!

Dravokivich

weisses wrote: »

Are internships generally not payed positions in Ireland ?

Internships only really became a thing in Ireland due to the recession. They had shelf stacking internships!

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

just give people the money, its much faster and circulates quicker, the economy needs money fast, reducing taxes doesnt increase the money supply, borrowing does, its how we create more money, reducing taxes just increases the velocity of the money supply, even though this is also needed....

It has been known for years that fiscal expansions like this don't have much impact in Ireland, as the extra public spending leaks out of the economy.

https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Ireland%E2%80%99s-Spending-Multipliers-Final.pdf

See the bottom of page 4.

"This is consistent with theory and with the fact that Ireland’s relatively large
dependence on imports leads to high leakages of income (Cronin and
McQuinn, 2014)."

Stihl waters

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the world has moved on, if pay is increased, its very likely this money will make its way straight back into the economy as people spend it, increasing the velocity of the money supply, of course some may sit in bank accounts, with zero velocity, and some may go towards servicing debts, destroying the money in effect, but theres no harm in keeping our private debt levels under control, as we all know what happens when that goes up in smoke!

That sort of nonsense just makes you seem like you haven't a clue what you're talking about

ma003

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

And if they feck off to Austalia or Dubai the week after circa €50k has been invested training them we can all celebrate :rolleyes:. Far too many nurses being trained in this country for what we actually need. If they are not working within the Irish health sector after 5 years and have left the country they should have to pay it back.

Well maybe if they weren't paid not much more than minimum wage for looking after sick people they wouldn't feel the need to feck off somewhere else. Student nurses are doing the job of a nurse from their very first placement. I am a medical student and as far as I know our placement in 3rd and 4th year are learning experiences where as my sister who is a student nurse had to pretty much work unpaid for four years of college doing the job of a fully qualified nurse to plug holes in an understaffed healthcare system. Can't begrudge them leaving for a country where they are treated with respect and can have a decent standard of living. The graduate medical program I am doing costs 15k a year which is going to cost almost 100k with interest by the time I get my degree and that is just for fees. Yes it was my choice to do the degree and get into debt but I am aware its a money making scheme for universities and if I choose to leave the country to get myself out of debt quicker then thats what I'll do! If we start saying that nurses need to pay the government back then maybe so should all Irish people who have gotten a degree and emigrated lol!

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

It has been known for years that fiscal expansions like this don't have much impact in Ireland, as the extra public spending leaks out of the economy.

https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Ireland%E2%80%99s-Spending-Multipliers-Final.pdf

See the bottom of page 4.

"This is consistent with theory and with the fact that Ireland’s relatively large
dependence on imports leads to high leakages of income (Cronin and
McQuinn, 2014)."

leaks where? into businesses? yes some of this 'leakage' would be paying down debts!

Stihl waters wrote: »

That sort of nonsense just makes you seem like you haven't a clue what you're talking about

please explain?

joseywhales

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the world has moved on, if pay is increased, its very likely this money will make its way straight back into the economy as people spend it, increasing the velocity of the money supply, of course some may sit in bank accounts, with zero velocity, and some may go towards servicing debts, destroying the money in effect, but theres no harm in keeping our private debt levels under control, as we all know what happens when that goes up in smoke!

All capital is invested if its in any account, your mattress is the only place to take it out of circulation.

In a bank account it can be leveraged by the bank and invested or given back as more debt.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the economy needs money fast, reducing taxes doesnt increase the money supply, borrowing does, its how we create more money, reducing taxes just increases the velocity of the money supply, even though this is also needed....

I don't know where you live, but in the eurozone, and in the USA, there have been huge increases in the money supply.

Eurozone

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/money_credit_banking/monetary_aggregates/html/index.en.html

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/stats/md/html/ecb.md2010~f0d8fd670c.en.html

26 November 2020

Annual growth rate of broad monetary aggregate M3 stood at 10.5% in October 2020, after 10.4% in September 2020

Annual growth rate of narrower monetary aggregate M1, comprising currency in circulation and overnight deposits, stood at 13.8% in October, unchanged from previous month

Annual growth rate of adjusted loans to households stood at 3.1% in October, unchanged from previous month


USA

https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/23-6-of-all-us-dollars-were-created-in-the-last-year

Wanderer78

joseywhales wrote: »

All capital is invested if its in any account, your mattress is the only place to take it out of circulation.

In a bank account it can be leveraged by the bank and invested or given back as more debt.

deposits are not used as loans, theyre simply held as reserves, money sitting in accounts has zero velocity, banks simply create money when a loan is taken out