Why not pay the student nurses?!

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

I don't know where you live, but in the eurozone, and in the USA, there have been huge increases in the money supply.

Eurozone

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/money_credit_banking/monetary_aggregates/html/index.en.html

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/stats/md/html/ecb.md2010~f0d8fd670c.en.html

26 November 2020

Annual growth rate of broad monetary aggregate M3 stood at 10.5% in October 2020, after 10.4% in September 2020

Annual growth rate of narrower monetary aggregate M1, comprising currency in circulation and overnight deposits, stood at 13.8% in October, unchanged from previous month

Annual growth rate of adjusted loans to households stood at 3.1% in October, unchanged from previous month


USA

https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/23-6-of-all-us-dollars-were-created-in-the-last-year

yes i know, thank you, but bare in mind, the majority of our money supply comes from banks in the form of credit, hence the term 'credit crisis'

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

leaks where? into businesses? yes some of this 'leakage' would be paying down debts!

Extra public expenditure does not have a huge multiplier effect, as the extra spending is spent on imports.

So VW and Toyota get a benefit.

Whereas the same extra public spending would have more impact in USA or Germany, as imports aren't so high.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

Extra public expenditure does not have a huge multiplier effect, as the extra spending is spent on imports.

So VW and Toyota get a benefit.

Whereas the same extra public spending would have more impact in USA or Germany, as imports aren't so high.

yes, but some of this money would be spent within the economy, not giving extra means no extra money in the irish economy, pretty simply stuff really, in fact id be giving all citizens some sort of credit, and fast, just to try save some irish businesses, and you d be wondering why very few irish businesses are taking the government up on their loans policy, ffs, government hasnt a clue what running a business is like!

Mad_maxx

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/motion-to-pay-student-nurses-5287097-Dec2020/





Morally, it's right to pay the student nurses, given the hard work they've done - and are still doing - during the pandemic.

So why did the government parties vote against the motion?

It's as if the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are gluttons for punishment - they seem ignorant of the increasing likelihood of a far-left coalition forming a government after the next general election.

there was a lot more to that bill than the populist - slogan ( " pay student nurses " ) headline suggested , the government were correct

Mad_maxx

duffman13 wrote: »

Cannot see that happening tbh, PBP etc are happy to shout the odds from the side and various smaller groups fracture off etc.

However on the point of student nurses, unprecedented work this year, id pay them. The problem is once you do something once, its expected and the unions (teachers, nurses etc) will be all over it

hospital staff never worked as little as this year in most departments , talk to them in private and they will tell you this

joseywhales

Wanderer78 wrote: »

deposits are not used as loans, theyre simply held as reserves, money sitting in accounts has zero velocity, banks simply create money when a loan is taken out

Deposits are used to enable loans. The regulator imposes a leverage ratio based on deposits. So if a bank has a lot of deposits they can obviously lend more. They don't just create the money as a private institution inflicting arbitrary inflation on the country and fx fluctuations without recourse. The banks can buy at the libor(or whatever your central bank has) rate(and meet the interest payments) but they cant just create money from nothing, they can also only borrow as much as they can handle and the regulator has rules about how much capital they need on deposit to do this.

Basically all money is invested except for physical cash.

Mad_maxx

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Another b*llocks statement.

Ireland is competing with every other western country for healthcare workers. If some other country has better wages and conditions for any profession then how can you blame people for going for it?

The HSE is a disgrace. Between the abysmal pay, understaffing, long hours, stress and weekly scandals, I'm not surprised HCPs are leaving the country.
If Ireland stopped nurses and doctors emigrating we'd have no Irish doctors and nurses. Who would go to college and graduate only to be shackled to this country for five years?

Madness.

EDIT The HSE ran a campaign to bring home Irish nurses from abroad. Promised them decent money and relocation bonuses. It was a complete failure as most nurses abroad know they have it better than they would get in Ireland.

The HSE also scrambled to pull student nurses out of college in March and gave them the same responsibilities as staff nurses, and didn't even pay them.

nurses pay in ireland is not " abysmal " , its higher than the UK and most of the EU

Wanderer78

joseywhales wrote: »

Deposits are used to enable loans. The regulator imposes a leverage ratio based on deposits. So if a bank has a lot of deposits they can obviously lend more. They don't just create the money as a private institution inflicting arbitrary inflation on the country and fx fluctuations without recourse. The banks can buy at the libor(or whatever your central bank has) rate(and meet the interest payments) but they cant just create money from nothing, they can also only borrow as much as they can handle and the regulator has rules about how much capital they need on deposit to do this.

Basically all money is invested except for physical cash.

yes, in a round about way, deposits are used, but theyre also not, this is why the government is trying to encourage people to spend, to increase the velocity of the money supply, the only problem is, theres actually very little confidence in the general public, because, well thats obvious.... if we dont get new money out there quickly, early next year is gonna be a calamity for irish businesses, new money is created by loans in both the public and private sectots, only once again, theres little or no confidence in the private domain, leaving the only option, public borrowing, so, get borrowing lads, or we re all gonna be fcuked, and pay the fcuking nurses, they deserve it, and the economy needs it, and fast!

Mad_maxx

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Whenever you see things about public sector workers getting raises ask yourself this question: How much of my tax money goes toward this raise? The answer is probably only a few pennies.

Now ask yourself: How much will I save in tax if they don't get a raise? The answer is nothing.

The government has no problem wasting billions of tax money yearly. I will always support my money going to pay some nurse or teacher or garda in the hopes it won't be spent on some nonsense like knocking a hole in the wall of Dail Eireann so they can push a massive printer in.

Btw as of last month that printer still hasn't printed a single page.

with that pitch perfect level of populism , you deserve to be on a SF electoral ticket or least working for them on Twitter

lawrencesummers

Mad_maxx wrote: »

hospital staff never worked as little as this year in most departments , talk to them in private and they will tell you this

I think your right, some of them have done very little
Espically the ones who got covid and spent weeks in hospital beds themselves.
Or on ventilators.
Or died.

Padre_Pio

Mad_maxx wrote: »

with that pitch perfect level of populism , you deserve to be on a SF electoral ticket or least working for them on Twitter

What's your issue with the post ,or are you just throwing out cheap shots?

Mad_maxx wrote: »

hospital staff never worked as little as this year in most departments , talk to them in private and they will tell you this

again, what's your point ? This is a thread about student nurses who are not paid for their work during COVID.

Since when is someone's salary tied to how busy they are? Are you paid more when you're busy?

weisses

khalessi wrote: »

As you said your circumstances are your own, but some student nurses are renting in lets say Drogheda and can be sent somewhere very distant for their placement. Not all placements are in the one hospital.

That's why i said expenses when on placement are a joke basically. But something i was aware of beforehand

tjhook

Padre_Pio wrote: »

This is a thread about student nurses who are not paid for their work during COVID.

A number of posters on this thread have said that the student nurses were paid for the work they did during COVID. Putting my hands up, I haven't seen any information outside this thread either to confirm or deny it.

Have you seen something to confirm that they weren't paid?

CIARAN_BOYLE

tjhook wrote: »

A number of posters on this thread have said that the student nurses were paid for the work they did during COVID. Putting my hands up, I haven't seen any information outside this thread either to confirm or deny it.

Have you seen something to confirm that they weren't paid?

We need to distinguish between work and work experience.

In March all work experience programs were ended and nursing on work experience were converted into health care assistance internships which was paid. Here is a document by the Irish nurses and midwifes organisation and a mirror article from March.

https://www.inmo.ie/COVIDStudent
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/coronavirus-ireland-student-nurses-paid-21761536.amp

When the second wave hit work experience programs continued in which is unpaid as it always was.

The unfair bit imo is that student nurses have been forbidden from holding part time jobs due to the risk of cross infection. They shouldn't be paid imo but they should be compensated for not being able to work part time.

The government has recognised this and put in provisions so that those who gave up part time work can claim pup.

Im happy with that.

weisses

Mad_maxx wrote: »

hospital staff never worked as little as this year in most departments , talk to them in private and they will tell you this

And still they were busy enough ... The fact that people in A&E are not waiting as long to be seen as they were pre covid doesn't change the workload on the nurses it just takes away the "crazy busy" part

LawBoy2018

There is absolutely no reason not to pay student nurses. The work they do well surpasses 'shadowing' and they should therefore be remunerated. I think the matter needs to be brought before the courts to get anywhere as the Gov parties now seem to be backed into a corner.

Meeoow

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

We need to distinguish between work and work experience.


The unfair bit imo is that student nurses have been forbidden from holding part time jobs due to the risk of cross infection. They shouldn't be paid imo but they should be compensated for not being able to work part time.

The government has recognised this and put in provisions so that those who gave up part time work can claim pup.

Im happy with that.

There is nothing stopping them getting work outside of hospitals. There would be no risk of crosscontamination. When I was studying in engineering, I had to take a cleaning job to make ends meet.

Mad_maxx

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I think your right, some of them have done very little
Espically the ones who got covid and spent weeks in hospital beds themselves.
Or on ventilators.
Or died.

which hospital staff died ?

James Brown

BailMeOut wrote: »

They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

They are not allowed work other paying jobs like they usually would because of covid fears.This is different because of covid.
IMO nurses, student or not, are more than essential.

Mad_maxx

Padre_Pio wrote: »

What's your issue with the post ,or are you just throwing out cheap shots?


again, what's your point ? This is a thread about student nurses who are not paid for their work during COVID.

Since when is someone's salary tied to how busy they are? Are you paid more when you're busy?

one of the key components of the arguements in favour of paying student nurses is that " they were ran off their feet in 2020 "

James Brown

Meeoow wrote: »

There is nothing stopping them getting work outside of hospitals. There would be no risk of crosscontamination. When I was studying in engineering, I had to take a cleaning job to make ends meet.

There is. They are not allowed. Health officials disagree.

Nermal

If you want to pay them, who do you not want to pay, so that we eventually balance our budget?

We don't have the luxury of Keynesian/MMT twaddle. We don't issue our own currency; we can't monetise our deficit.

When we spend more on Peter, Paul must pay for it, either now or in the future.

If you want to feel good about yourself by paying Peter more, tell us who you want Paul to be.

khalessi

Meeoow wrote: »

There is nothing stopping them getting work outside of hospitals. There would be no risk of crosscontamination. When I was studying in engineering, I had to take a cleaning job to make ends meet.

Nursing sick people is different to cleaning, and there is covid to consider. Prevention of cross infection is why they were told not to wrok elsewhere during Covid

Meeoow

khalessi wrote: »

Nursing sick people is different to cleaning, and there is covid to consider. Prevention of cross infection is why they were told not to wrok elsewhere during Covid

They can still take work in shops or take aways. Just not in health care facilities. The point I was making is that I took a job that had nothing to do with my course or training.

LawBoy2018

How stupid do you have to be to think that the reason the Gov don't want to pay them is because they need to 'balance the books'? You obviously have 0 idea as to what you're talking about.

Ireland2020

Meeoow wrote: »

They can still take work in shops or take aways. Just not in health care facilities. The point I was making is that I took a job that had nothing to do with my course or training.

Ah yes loads of shops (which wer all closed) restaurants pubs (closed) are enjoying staff

tjhook

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

How stupid do you have to be to think that the reason the Gov don't want to pay them is because they need to 'balance the books'? You obviously have 0 idea as to what you're talking about.

I think balancing the books (or protecting them from further unbalancing) has a lot to do with it. Firstly, the demands have encompassed a lot more than payment for this once-off pandemic situation.

As described in previous posts, there has been payment for work done. Not for "work experience". If the unions want a special payment for this work experience, they'd need to agree to:

- Accept it's a once-off
- Not to look for similar increases for other sectors
- Not to use this as leverage in future negotiations

And of course, they'd need to actually stick to the agreement.

I can easily see how any movement from the government on this topic could lead to a raft of other claims.

ma003

Meeoow wrote: »

They can still take work in shops or take aways. Just not in health care facilities. The point I was making is that I took a job that had nothing to do with my course or training.

So do I. But the point is there is a big difference between me attending lectures and attending placements where I am learning and student nurses who are pretty much working their asses off and being used as unpaid slaves to hold up the health service. I know lots of student nurses and if the health care system didn't have them doing placements from year one of their degree the system would fall apart. Why do you think medical students aren't put in hospitals till at least year 3?? Because they are actually doing placements where they learn and aren't technically doing the job of doctors where as student nurses are free labour.

keyboard_cat

Mad_maxx wrote: »

nurses pay in ireland is not " abysmal " , its higher than the UK and most of the EU

Not sure about the levels of pay but the issue for a lot of nurses is the opportunities in Ireland are non existent.
The students are treated like **** on placement in hospitals in Ireland and when they graduate they are recruited by hospitals all over Europe who appreciate how valuable they are and regardless of pay levels invest in them in other ways (such as trainings which you cannot get with the hse)

I know a few nurses who went to the uk and the standard of work they did was much more reflective of the level of education they had, they have all specialised in various fields and are all now making a lot more money then the nurses who stayed in Ireland who are still general nurses working up they weeks to get up the pay scale

LawBoy2018

tjhook wrote: »

I think balancing the books (or protecting them from further unbalancing) has a lot to do with it. Firstly, the demands have encompassed a lot more than payment for this once-off pandemic situation.

As described in previous posts, there has been payment for work done. Not for "work experience". If the unions want a special payment for this work experience, they'd need to agree to:

- Accept it's a once-off
- Not to look for similar increases for other sectors
- Not to use this as leverage in future negotiations

And of course, they'd need to actually stick to the agreement.

I can easily see how any movement from the government on this topic could lead to a raft of other claims.

But the point is, the work these student nurses carry out on a daily basis far-exceeds work experience. They are essentially used to fill the cracks of a failing healthcare system. Politicians in suits patronising these young students by saying that they're merely 'shadowing' or on 'work experience' is a slap in their faces.

It's unconscionable for them not to be paid for such work.

It would be great if they collectively made a stand and refused to provide any services for the HSE which might surpass the definition of 'work experience', to show any naysayers how integral they are to the Irish healthcare system.