How do you feel about paying tax? US/Ireland comparison

NSAman

NSAman wrote: »

First and foremost safety is paramount for me.

That's a complete and utter lie considering the SUV and pickup you are driving are more likely to rollover or go into a speed wobble. So, like I said. Penis waving showboating items.

NSAman

salonfire wrote: »

That's a complete and utter lie considering the SUV and pickup you are driving are more likely to rollover or go into a speed wobble. So, like I said. Penis waving showboating items.

Another doubter..hmmm.. that’s why both have every conceivable safety system on them.

Don’t need to wave my penis at anyone apart from the one I love. Now have you asked your psychologist about that obvious affliction you have? Penis envy?

Andrewf20

salonfire wrote: »

Cars in America are used as penis waving contests, absolutely stupid and absurd. At least the high tax keeps these out of Ireland.
Nothing more embarrassing see a massive lifted truck that should be in the Alaskan oil fields sitting in a McDonalds drive thru

I don't see it as being hugely different in Ireland, it just takes on a slightly different form. I.e. Dads new 520d on pcp or mammys new 2020 Hyundai Tucson or suped up tdi boras on 20 inch rims. People like moving up the dominance hierarchy as Jordan Peterson would say, even if it's to create the illusion of dominance compared to others.

Yanks like big and if they can afford big, they will buy it. Similar to here. SUVs and cross overs are more popular than 20 years ago.

CoBo55

Zascar wrote: »

It's absolutely criminal and just unfair to car lovers. I always wanted to have nice cars with big engines but it just pained me too much to get raped each year with the tax so always kept it under 2L.

Now I live in Dubai, and like the OP in the USA, there are almost no taxes on cars here. Just a yearly registration/test fee of about €150. Insurance Is very cheap also - it's a flat rate based on the cylinders once it's over a certain age. I drive a 4.5L V8 Porsche Cayenne (which I only paid €6,000 euro for as its 2008 - but mint), and I pay under €500. Looking at a Porsche Cayman and insurance will only be €250. Also the car is insured and anyone can drive it. Oh and a full tank of petrol in mine is just over €30 for 90 litres. It's the way it should be. Could not come back to Ireland be raped insane costs of cars, tax and insurance and then again by zero no claims bonus etc - that does not even exist out here.

No further questions your honour, the poster has incriminated themselves:pac:

Fritzbox

Elite Genetics wrote: »

I've been to 50 states, all of regions of Canada and Mexico. Then I've been to every single country in South America and driven hundreds of thousands of miles and I disagree.

1. Most states in US are bigger than Ireland. You cannot just take a massive mega region with population 10 times as that of Ireland and say that the traffic is bad.
2. Dublin has no excuse, it has the population of a district in a big city like New York but still cannot handle the traffic and has one of the worst in Europe with the smallest population. You'd swear that Dublin is a a colossal city on the likes of New York and London, are you really comparing them?

London population: 8 million
Dublin population: 1 million

Dublin is the same size as a regional town in Germany or US and vast majority of them don't suffer these issues.

Do you live in Germany? I live in Germany.

Dublin would probably be among the top 5 biggest cities in Germany, population wise. Düsseldorf near me has huge traffic jams every rush hour - it often takes people hours to drive into work. Same thing for most other German cities.

Did you not see the photos of traffic in Phoenix AZ, in a previous post Phoenix is about the size of Dublin, I think.

AndrewJRenko

Elite Genetics wrote: »

Talking absolute nonsense without any proof. Looking for any excuse to **** on the US without even having lived there and commuted. Commuting is a breeze because of multiple lane wide roads. Everything is designed around cars so it is much better than Ireland in this specific regard.

"multiple lane wide roads" - what could possibly go wrong with that approach?



You might want to have a bit of a deeper think about the impacts of designing everything around cars and the impacts for children (living car bound lives with zero independence) and older people (stranded in car bound communities when they can no longer drive), along with the impacts on the environment and public health.

redcup342

Fritzbox wrote: »

Do you live in Germany? I live in Germany.

Dublin would probably be among the top 5 biggest cities in Germany, population wise. Düsseldorf near me has huge traffic jams every rush hour - it often takes people hours to drive into work. Same thing for most other German cities.

Did you not see the photos of traffic in Phoenix AZ, in a previous post Phoenix is about the size of Dublin, I think.

I live in Dusseldorf, can confirm that going from Dusseldorf to Cologne at the wrong time can result in a 2 hour journey vs the normal 38 minutes.

Not really comparable though, I mean NL is on a different level of population density but the Traffic Nework is excellent, Roads are way better than German roads.

They do still get traffic jams though, I remember on the A2 outside Eindhoven in the Winter there was such a bad traffic jam people started running out of fuel as they had to keep the engine running since it was really cold.

For sure there is a lot of congestion in Dublin but its just in Dublin, in Germany the congestion is terrible between cities.

If you are driving to Cologne Airport from Dusseldorf and you see "Stau" flash up overhead is a real oh sh*t moment :pac:

McGrath5

CiniO wrote: »

Can you explain how is that? I honestly can't see how possibly rest of society be subsidizing you driving around. I think it's exactly the opposite - by paying your motortax, vrt, and silly insurance, you are being drained out of money very unfairly.

Sorry I totally forgot to come back to you on this topic.

Yes, VRT, motor tax and fuel tax are a total pain but even these do not fully contribute to the cost of building and maintaining our road network. Owning and running a car would be a hell of a lot more expensive if it wasn't subsidized from elsewhere. It's only damn right that motorists pay their fair share.

There is also the pollution (air & noise) and injuries / fatality's we have become so immune too.

How do you think all the of our new roads & bridges are paid and maintained for? One of the finest bridges in Europe was opened up outside of New Ross earlier this year for the exclusive use of motorists only, it doesn't have any pedestrian or cycle lanes Public transport investment has long played second fiddle to our roads spending, that needs to change.

Ireland is an insanely car centric country.

SmokyMo

McGrath5 wrote: »

Sorry I totally forgot to come back to you on this topic.

Yes, VRT, motor tax and fuel tax are a total pain but even these do not fully contribute to the cost of building and maintaining our road network. Owning and running a car would be a hell of a lot more expensive if it wasn't subsidized from elsewhere. It's only damn right that motorists pay their fair share.

There is also the pollution (air & noise) and injuries / fatality's we have become so immune too.

How do you think all the of our new roads & bridges are paid and maintained for? One of the finest bridges in Europe was opened up outside of New Ross earlier this year for the exclusive use of motorists only, it doesn't have any pedestrian or cycle lanes Public transport investment has long played second fiddle to our roads spending, that needs to change.

Ireland is an insanely car centric country.

How do you cost the benefits/profit that this infrastructure brings?

People would not have a problem with motor tax if it was calculated fairly and it spending was transparent.

For example, when most of it was used to set up Irish Water fiasco, people just skeptical. Also roads in Ireland are in a hoop. Comparable to Eastern Europe at times...

Remember how greens wanted everyone to drive diesels thinking they were great for environment … when every mechanic could give you a lecture how manky they are... Plebs.

I cant stomach paying my m3 tax so its off-road most of the year.

galwaytt

salonfire wrote: »

Cars in America are used as penis waving contests, absolutely stupid and absurd. At least the high tax keeps these out of Ireland.
Nothing more embarrassing see a massive lifted truck that should be in the Alaskan oil fields sitting in a McDonalds drive thru

My mother and her Mercury Grand Marquis V8, in GA, would tend to disprove your theory. There again, she came from a Cadillac Biarritz.

galwaytt

McGrath5 wrote: »

Sorry I totally forgot to come back to you on this topic.

Yes, VRT, motor tax and fuel tax are a total pain but even these do not fully contribute to the cost of building and maintaining our road network. Owning and running a car would be a hell of a lot more expensive if it wasn't subsidized from elsewhere. It's only damn right that motorists pay their fair share.

There is also the pollution (air & noise) and injuries / fatality's we have become so immune too.

How do you think all the of our new roads & bridges are paid and maintained for? One of the finest bridges in Europe was opened up outside of New Ross earlier this year for the exclusive use of motorists only, it doesn't have any pedestrian or cycle lanes Public transport investment has long played second fiddle to our roads spending, that needs to change.

Ireland is an insanely car centric country.

Irish motoring puts €6Bn into the central exchequer every year, and only a % of that goes to roads, so motoring is actually subsidising everything else, not the other way round.

And when that nugget dawns on the GP and their ilk, wait 'til you see how they're going to hammer EV owners then.

Fritzbox

galwaytt wrote: »

Irish motoring puts €6Bn into the central exchequer every year, and only a % of that goes to roads, so motoring is actually subsidising everything else, not the other way round.

And when that nugget dawns on the GP and their ilk, wait 'til you see how they're going to hammer EV owners then.

That's certainly true. People who smoke and drink a bit in Ireland also pay more than their fair share tax as well.

NSAman

OSI wrote: »

The flat "on the road" price of driving in the US is cheaper but they certainly can and do get you elsewhere. Toll roads are endemic in many parts of the country and in the many secondments I've had to make I've regularly spent more on Tolls in the couple of months of being over there than I had in motor tax on my personal car at home.

Never going to equal the rates that I would have to pay for Motor Tax in Ireland.

I90 in Illinois, open driving with tolls. 40 bucks every couple of months.

90 Miles of 4 lane highway. 120 Bridges demolished and rebuilt. Lights the entire length of the highway. Cleaned all the time. repairs carried out in a timely manner. All built in under 2 years. widened from 2 lanes to 4 lanes (at least) both sides.

Consider a brothers last bill for EFlow last month 60 euro.

Not only are you paying motor ta in Ireland but you are also paying for Tolls....

You cannot generalise about the State in that fashion. In some states, you pay tax on the size of the engine.

NSAman

NSAman wrote: »

Another doubter..hmmm.. that’s why both have every conceivable safety system on them.

Apart from remaining upright in the course of a crash that is.

Cars have these "every conceivable safety systems" as well you know with the added benefit they are less likely to end up on their roof.

NSAman

salonfire wrote: »

Apart from remaining upright in the course of a crash that is.

Cars have these "every conceivable safety systems" as well you know with the added benefit they are less likely to end up on their roof.

At least they are not charged VAT and VRT in the States. Paying tax to make a car safer means many owners will not avail of safety systems that are optional upgrades..... silly iMHO!

bazz26

Go live in the US but make sure you decent health care cover and have plenty of money to send your children through college. God help you if your only earning just above minimum wage over there. The grass is always greener on the other side.

AndrewJRenko

galwaytt wrote: »

Irish motoring puts €6Bn into the central exchequer every year, and only a % of that goes to roads, so motoring is actually subsidising everything else, not the other way round.

And when that nugget dawns on the GP and their ilk, wait 'til you see how they're going to hammer EV owners then.

Fritzbox wrote: »

That's certainly true.

Except it's not true.

The cost of motoring is the not the cost of building roads. Motoring is a huge cost to society in general, resulting in the transport choices of generally the more priviliged and wealthy members of society being subsidised by everybody.

The costs of motoring in Ireland include the full cost of the Road Safety Authority. It includes a substantial chunk of the costs of the Gardai and the Courts Services, and the Dept Transport, and all the local authorities.

It includes the costs of the motorists' share of the 1500 premature deaths here each year due to poor air quality.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/24/motorists-should-pay-full-costs-of-road-pollution-deaths-and-damage-says-eu-transport-commissioner/?sh=1ad3df7c2c0b

Fritzbox

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except it's not true.

The cost of motoring is the not the cost of building roads. Motoring is a huge cost to society in general, resulting in the transport choices of generally the more priviliged and wealthy members of society being subsidised by everybody.

The costs of motoring in Ireland include the full cost of the Road Safety Authority. It includes a substantial chunk of the costs of the Gardai and the Courts Services, and the Dept Transport, and all the local authorities.

It includes the costs of the motorists' share of the 1500 premature deaths here each year due to poor air quality.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/24/motorists-should-pay-full-costs-of-road-pollution-deaths-and-damage-says-eu-transport-commissioner/?sh=1ad3df7c2c0b

Do you also want to control the availability of alcohol, tobacco, the various recreational drugs, fish and chips, full fat ice cream - none of these thing are good for people's health, or for for the environment either.

Fritzbox

OSI wrote: »

We already do through the the use of duties, sugar taxes etc

As do motorists.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

Do you also want to control the availability of alcohol, tobacco, the various recreational drugs, fish and chips, full fat ice cream - none of these thing are good for people's health, or for for the environment either.

I thought we were talking about costs here, not about controls?

Fritzbox

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I thought we were talking about costs here, not about controls?

We were talking about taxes - that's the name of the thread.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

We were talking about taxes - that's the name of the thread.

So not talking about controls then, good to confirm this.

Fritzbox

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So not talking about controls then, good to confirm this.

We are discussing the differences in motoring taxes, and costs in between Ireland and and US. Americans also have to pay for their Road Safety Authority and traffic policing as well.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

We are discussing the differences in motoring taxes, and costs in between Ireland and and US. Americans also have to pay for their Road Safety Authority and traffic policing as well.

I was responding to the false claim that motorists put money into the Irish exchequer.

Fritzbox

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I was responding to the false claim that motorists put money into the Irish exchequer.

Is it a a false claim? Prove it.

Although I do wonder where the poster got the figure for 6 billion euro - for if its an accurate figure then I suspect very much that the Irish motorist doe pay more into the Irish exchequer than they get out of it.

Andrewf20

salonfire wrote: »

Apart from remaining upright in the course of a crash that is.

Cars have these "every conceivable safety systems" as well you know with the added benefit they are less likely to end up on their roof.

Just found these - they suggest SUVs still look safer in a crash for those onboard...

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/tips-and-advice/advice-auto/discover-the-suv/suv-frequently-asked-questions/are-suvs-safer-than-cars

"research has found that an SUV driver or passenger is at least 50 percent more likely to survive a car crash without suffering serious injuries than an individual riding in a saloon."

A study here from OZ suggests the same:

https://theconversation.com/ive-always-wondered-are-suvs-and-4wds-safer-than-other-cars-98559

Andrewf20

Overall I find the tax regime for motoring in Ireland to be something I dont think too much about tbh. I tend to look at the big picture. For all the things America do better than us, we probably have something else we do better than them.

Either way we are 3rd in the world for human development vs 15th for the USA. We are also slightly ahead on the world happiness index with 16th place vs 18th for America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2020_World_Happiness_Report

Fritzbox

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Overall I find the tax regime for motoring in Ireland to be something I dont think too much about tbh. I tend to look at the big picture. For all the things America do better than us, we probably have something else we do better than them.

Either way we are 3rd in the world for human development vs 15th for the USA. We are also slightly ahead on the world happiness index with 16th place vs 18th for America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2020_World_Happiness_Report

True that maybe for America, they may not pay a whole lot of taxes for motoring in the States, but what may be true is that in most of the individual states the property taxes will crucify you.

AndrewJRenko

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Just found these - they suggest SUVs still look safer in a crash for those onboard...

Let's look at the full picture - particularly the harm done to pedestrians by SUVs

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1338210473892667392?s=20

Fritzbox wrote: »

Is it a a false claim? Prove it.

Although I do wonder where the poster got the figure for 6 billion euro - for if its an accurate figure then I suspect very much that the Irish motorist doe pay more into the Irish exchequer than they get out of it.

It's a false claim because the only cost mention was 'roads'. Motorists costs society a lot more than 'roads'.

And that's before we even think about the opportunity cost of the huge amounts of public space dedicated to storage of private property, mostly for no charge.

Andrewf20

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Let's look at the full picture - particularly the harm done to pedestrians by SUVs

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1338210473892667392?s=20

I agree with the twitter. I have no interest in SUVs myself but for keeping passengers onboard safe, they seem to be the thing to go for.