DCC Protected Junctions

Mercian Pro

Dublin City Council have just posted that they are going to introduce protected junctions at a number of locations starting at Balbutcher Lane near IKEA. Details including a video, booklet and FAQs are at https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/transportation/protected-junctions. Looks good but it very much depends on motorists turning left or right accepting that cyclists crossing have right of way.



While the video and booklet talk about advanced starts for cyclists so that they should be across the junction before cars start turning left, the FAQs indicate that this will not be the norm unfortunately: "This will depend on the junction but won’t be the standard arrangement as it may result in very longer waiting periods for all users. In general the cyclist will be in the same phase as vehicles and where possible will get a head start using the dedicated cycle signals." Hard to see how 5sec advanced start for cyclists could result in "very longer waiting periods".


Not sure how attractive the right turn arrangement for cyclists is going to be either particularly if there is not much traffic around.

Edit: I may have misread the FAQ I quoted above. I think it refers to not providing a full sequence where cyclists only would cross but that advanced starts for cyclists would be standard. If so, these really need to be a minimum of 5 sec duration and not the 1 or 2 sec provided currently at some traffic lights in town.

Weepsie

Good luck with them for balbutcher lane. One of the absolute worst for people being cretins in their vehicles

smacl

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Dublin City Council have just posted that they are going to introduce protected junctions at a number of locations starting at Balbutcher Lane near IKEA. Details including a video, booklet and FAQs are at https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/transportation/protected-junctions. Looks good but it very much depends on motorists turning left or right accepting that cyclists crossing have right of way.



While the video and booklet talk about advanced starts for cyclists so that they should be across the junction before cars start turning left, the FAQs indicate that this will not be the norm unfortunately: "This will depend on the junction but won’t be the standard arrangement as it may result in very longer waiting periods for all users. In general the cyclist will be in the same phase as vehicles and where possible will get a head start using the dedicated cycle signals." Hard to see how 5sec advanced start for cyclists could result in "very longer waiting periods".


Not sure how attractive the right turn arrangement for cyclists is going to be either particularly if there is not much traffic around.

I'd be a bit sceptical of any cycle lane design that leaves the cyclist going ahead on the inside of left turning traffic regardless of who technically has the right of way. I'd rather use box turns in heavy traffic where I didn't fancy being able to get safely across multiple lanes, albeit it involves waiting for a second set of lights.

Mercian Pro

smacl wrote: »

I'd be a bit sceptical of any cycle lane design that leaves the cyclist going ahead on the inside of left turning traffic regardless of who technically has the right of way. I'd rather use box turns in heavy traffic where I didn't fancy being able to get safely across multiple lanes, albeit it involves waiting for a second set of lights.

There is mention of trialling an flashing amber turn light for cars rather than the normal green and having flashing studs in the ground. I agree that, even with those, it would still be risky going ahead unless you've managed to establish eye-contact with the driver which is unlikely.

I agree that a box turn makes sense in heavy traffic but I suspect a lot of other cyclists may not.


I may have misread the FAQ I quoted above. I think it refers to not providing a full sequence where cyclists only would cross but that advanced starts for cyclists would be standard. If so, these really need to be a minimum of 5 sec duration and not the 1 or 2 sec provided currently at some traffic lights in town.

km991148

ouch - I am not sure I like the look of that at all.. especially the 'cyclist going ahead, motorist turning left' scenario.

From the web site it all hinges on this:

"Left turning vehicles must take care and yield to cyclists who are travelling straight through the junction"

Even watching the cartoon-y video makes me nervous!

Right turn seems to be similar to how they do right turns in Melbourne - not too bad (although given the choice, I think Id rather just keep with the flow of the right turning traffic anyway - but I understand not everyone would be as confident).

Will be interesting to see how this pans out. Nice to see they are at least trying to accommodate all road users.

km991148

Mercian Pro wrote: »

I may have misread the FAQ I quoted above. I think it refers to not providing a full sequence where cyclists only would cross but that advanced starts for cyclists would be standard. If so, these really need to be a minimum of 5 sec duration and not the 1 or 2 sec provided currently at some traffic lights in town.

A good few seconds is fine for when the lights first change - but when the junction is already green and you approach it as a cyclists, its going to be nerve-racking if you follow the segregated route. In these scenarios I'd much rather just take primary through the junction at normal speeds. Nut I suspect that it wont be possible due to the separation infrastructure.

JazzyJ

Isn't this a common type of junction in the Netherlands?

The protected islands don't look to be as effective as in the following video though https://vimeo.com/86721046

Mercian Pro

JazzyJ wrote: »

Isn't this a common type of junction in the Netherlands?

The protected islands don't look to be as effective as in the following video though https://vimeo.com/86721046

I hadn't fully appreciated the benefits of the Dutch design, nor the amount of thought that went into it, until I watched that video. Cian Ginty of IrishCycle.com has previously criticised Irish variants of that design and now I see why. There are so many critical details missing from the DCC version that it's hard to know where to begin.



The lack of an advanced stop line for bikes is one as the DCC design clearly shows that bikes are expected to stop level with cars. In practice, most cyclists would probably move forward to the box in order to be more visible and to get a headstart. Increasing the size of the island and having the bike crossing lane at least a car length back from the traffic lane is another one and would greatly increase the liklihood of a driver seeing a crossing cyclist. What DCC are suggesting about an advanced green light for cyclists is probably the least safe option of the possible sequences described in the video.


Quite a few DCC staff and Councillors have been on study trips to the Netherlands and Denmark and seen how things should be done. Even if they haven't, that video should be essential viewing for all of their Road traffic engineers. Is it fear of delaying and upsetting motorists that is behind the shortcuts that have been taken?

Weepsie

Even if we can get the design correct, I imagine we'll have a fair number of years of needing behaviour to change with it, and I say that for all road users who have the attitude of sure "it's only amber" etc etc.

Breezer

Oof. I like the idea. But I’ve been saying for years that this type of thing won’t work in Ireland (at least not initially. People will have to get used to it, particularly when it’s just the odd junction. And it’s not something you want to be taking chances with while people get used to it).

It’s like what I’ve seen in Germany, where both vehicles and pedestrians going the same direction through a junction get green at the same time. The idea being that drivers turning are watching for pedestrians and yield to them. With the best will in the world, we don’t have that system here, and it would take time to get used to.

And then if you take primary through the junction, it will become another case of “cyclists not using the perfectly good infrastructure we paid for.”

I agree with advance starts of a reasonable duration for cyclists, and the need to position cyclists further forward in the junction.

Seth Brundle

Breezer wrote: »

I agree with advance starts of a reasonable duration for cyclists, and the need to position cyclists further forward in the junction.

Sure many drivers cant stop before the ASL!

GlennaMaddy

This will only work if we have presumed liability, otherwise drivers will throw their weight around when turning left.

hesker

JazzyJ wrote: »

Isn't this a common type of junction in the Netherlands?

The protected islands don't look to be as effective as in the following video though https://vimeo.com/86721046

Great video. Looks to work really well in situations where traffic is stopped at a red light.

How does it work in moving traffic. If you have a continuous line of turning cars would cyclists have to wait for a red before they get priority.

Seth Brundle

hesker wrote: »

How does it work in moving traffic. If you have a continuous line of turning cars would cyclists have to wait for a red before they get priority.

I think DCC are hoping that cyclists would have priority.
However, I'm sure that Dublin's motorists would hold a very different view.

hesker

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think DCC are hoping that cyclists would have priority.
However, I'm sure that Dublin's motorists would hold a very different view.

I threw out the question with the protected intersection in the video in mind. Is this not a real drawback of the design. Grand if you only have occasional turning cars and trucks. If the cycle track was raised through the junction it might help.

km991148

JazzyJ wrote: »

Isn't this a common type of junction in the Netherlands?

The protected islands don't look to be as effective as in the following video though https://vimeo.com/86721046

Would never work here - they are all cycling/driving in the wrong direction for a start :pac:

alentejo

I worry that longer Queue times for traffic will result in more cars running yellow/red lights and being generally more impatient. If you are mad keen to get past a light in Orange / Red, you are more likely not to see a pedestrian or cyclist.

As a cyclist, I wish there was a reduction in traffic lights and solutions which tame traffic but I suspect this may be wishful thinking on mybehalf!