My proposal for Dublin taxis & bus lanes

Dick Turnip

Deleted User wrote: »

The bus is more likely to be slowing down the taxi than the other way around.

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Dick Turnip

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

...or more people in cars rather than single occupancy.

Well buses will always be way more efficient than a full car of 4 or 5 anyway. Plus I would say it's easier to get people to switch to public transport rather than car pooling.

bigar

Spook_ie wrote: »

Because it's an SPSV not a private car

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

The goal shouldn't be to get people from their own cars in to taxis, the goal should be to get them on to a bus/luas/tram.

Nobody is disputing that taxis aren't private cars but they they are in effect the same as a private car. They add to congestion as much as a car and more so, where there's a bus lane, they add to congestion of buses carrying multiples of the number of people in them.

Could someone could explain the logic behind why a taxi with one occupant should go in a bus lane while a solo driver can't?

Bus lanes were presumably introduced to facilitate getting as many people as possible about the city where space is at a premium. Surely taxis just negate that to a degree?

At the end of the day its to move people from private cars to public transport, taxis are public transport. Think of them as buses with 1 to 8 passengers that aren't limited to pick up and drop off at predetermined intervals and stops.

Because at journeys end the taxi doesn't require a parking space, its off to find another passenger(s) whether that be via Radio, App , Rank or Plying for hire.

Spook_ie

bigar wrote: »

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

Time you realised a taxi is not a private car hire. As legislated for as an SPSV.

Dick Turnip

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Sure, that's a couple of minutes that people have built into their journey time. If you travel on a bus you pay about 3 euro for the journey. If you travel in a taxi you pay about 1.35 per km plus a standing charge. Taxi's are a means to get somewhere, but you're going to pay a premium for it. That premium currently includes being able to be driven through bus lanes. Banning taxi's from bus lanes isn't going to ease congestion in any meaningful way that bus users will notice. It will just make getting a taxi more expensive and would mean getting to your destination takes more time.

But I haven't been on a bus in months since Covid, so maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was held up in a bus lane because of the 4 or 5 taxis that were somehow always getting in front of the bus I was on.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Carefull now, you'll be straying dangerously close to having cyclists holding up buses next.

What holds buses up is actually (more often than not) other buses at bus stops.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Time you realised a taxi is not a private car hire. As legislated for as an SPSV.

You keep saying SPSV. Legally a taxi is a Small Public Service Vehicle, grand - that's not in dispute here.

I'm saying one person switching from their car to a taxi, does nothing for congestion on the streets, which is a major issue in Dublin. I think we can agree on that much?

Taxis shouldn't have the same privilege as buses, as they do nothing to help the congestion in the city.

Dravokivich

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were me, I'd just ban taxis from bus lanes between the hours of 7 and 7. The NTA are supposedly bringing in camera based enfocement for bus lanes anyway so that could be used to manage taxis also. With the roll out of 24hr buses the taxi industry looks like it's way to a greatly reduced business model. The bulk of taxi journeys are taken after midnight (pre covid).

I wouldn't be keen on this if they don't do a review of junctions that would require people to use a section of the bus lane. A lot of them have been repainted and made shorter. Particularly on the N4.

ED E wrote: »

Yeah except the NTA, Gardai and Dept of Justice are still scrapping about it.

We have red light cameras, they're turned off. #OnlyInIreland

#OnlyinIreland, except the issue of breaking a red light is contextual and a picture wouldn't present the context.

bigar wrote: »

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

That's a very loose way to interpret it. Would be suggesting rented cars can use'em.

What's your view on Mini Buses and Coaches?

Spook_ie wrote: »

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

We don't need on street parking in a city. Its a poor use of space and it's good that Dublin City Council have started reclaiming it. It's a shame it took the pandemic and an expectation there'd be less need for on street parking, to be the driver for it.

Dick Turnip

Deleted User wrote: »

Banning taxi's from bus lanes isn't going to ease congestion in any meaningful way that bus users will notice. It will just make getting a taxi more expensive and would mean getting to your destination takes more time.

Have you seen the number of taxis in Dublin? You take those all out of the bus lane and you're think it won't have any effect on buses?

It will mean your taxi journey is slower, but it will also mean many people's bus journeys are quicker. Which is the better overall?

Deleted User wrote: »

But I haven't been on a bus in months since Covid, so maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was held up in a bus lane because of the 4 or 5 taxis that were somehow always getting in front of the bus I was on.

Come on now, I gave one simple example of how in theory taxis can hold up/delay a bus at one junction, because some posters were saying taxis do no harm in the bus lane. I think you're being deliberately obtuse there.

Dick Turnip

Dravokivich wrote: »

#OnlyinIreland, except the issue of breaking a red light is contextual and a picture wouldn't present the context.

How is breaking a red light contextual though?

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's a very loose way to interpret it. Would be suggesting rented cars can use'em.

Do you mean taxis with a passenger in them? Or do you mean a rental car from Hertz or the like?

Dravokivich wrote: »

We don't need on street parking in a city. Its a poor use of space and it's good that Dublin City Council have started reclaiming it. It's a shame it took the pandemic and an expectation there'd be less need for on street parking, to be the driver for it.

100% agreed

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

You keep saying SPSV. Legally a taxi is a Small Public Service Vehicle, grand - that's not in dispute here.

I'm saying one person switching from their car to a taxi, does nothing for congestion on the streets, which is a major issue in Dublin. I think we can agree on that much?

Taxis shouldn't have the same privilege as buses, as they do nothing to help the congestion in the city.

Of course it does, it removes that persons car from the road and releases that persons parking space, if a taxi does 10 such journeys then they've removed 10 cars from the road and alleviated the need for 10 parking spaces. You should be encouraging more people to use taxis as well as LPSVs

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-licensing/other-bus-lpsv-licensing-contacts/
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/

the boss of me

I can't be arsed reading all the posts in this thread but I'm wondering where this idea is coming from ?? I suspect it's coming from cycling lobby I've never heard Dublin Bus or their trades unions having any issues with it.

I've been driving buses in Dublin for the last 15 years and trust me ... It's not taxis slowing up buses its motorists. We need more enforcement of bus lanes. Illegal parking , cars queuing in bus lanes are a much bigger problem. Plus of course the new traffic light sequences that only allow one or two vehicles through before turning red again.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Carefull now, you'll be straying dangerously close to having cyclists holding up buses next.

What holds buses up is actually (more often than not) other buses at bus stops.

Other buses do hold them up yes, but there's nothing we can do about that really.
Well there is, they should make buses cashless to decrease the time it takes to get passengers on.

Spook_ie

Dravokivich wrote: »

We don't need on street parking in a city. Its a poor use of space and it's good that Dublin City Council have started reclaiming it. It's a shame it took the pandemic and an expectation there'd be less need for on street parking, to be the driver for it.

You need parking of some kind if people bring their cars into the city, a taxi frees up those spaces whether they are surface or multistory, SPSVs have their place alongside LPSVs, CoVid proved that when buses were forced to limit passenger numbers because of it.

Dick Turnip

the boss of me wrote: »

I can't be arsed reading all the posts in this thread but I'm wondering where this idea is coming from ?? I suspect it's coming from cycling lobby I've never heard Dublin Bus or their trades unions having any issues with it.

I've been driving buses in Dublin for the last 15 years and trust me ... It's not taxis slowing up buses its motorists. We need more enforcement of bus lanes. Illegal parking , cars queuing in bus lanes are a much bigger problem. Plus of course the new traffic light sequences that only allow one or two vehicles through before turning red again.

The idea is coming from me being hungover and not particularly arsed working today. Also, the main idea is that this is a discussion board so I thought we were allowed start any topic we wanted

Yeah, like I don't think it's the #1 reason for congestion at all but it popped in to my head so thought I'd post!

That's interesting to hear from your point of view though. I really think that using bus cameras to penalise cars using the bus lane would be such an easy win. I can't understand why Shane Ross ruled it out before. It's working in NYC.
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/08/07/bus-mounted-cameras-have-issued-40000-tix-since-october/

Dravokivich

Dick Turnip wrote: »

How is breaking a red light contextual though?



Do you mean taxis with a passenger in them? Or do you mean a rental car from Hertz or the like?



100% agreed

Breaking a Red Light is not as binary as speeding. For example if you are within a junction and the light goes red, you still hold right of way and everyone else is obligated to allow you through. A picture will not capture when you entered the junction, just that you are present.

Bigar suggested that the use of a taxi is just renting a private car. It would then be comparable to actually renting a car from someone like Hertz.

Spook_ie wrote: »

You need parking of some kind if people bring their cars into the city, a taxi frees up those spaces whether they are surface or multistory, SPSVs have their place alongside LPSVs, CoVid proved that when buses were forced to limit passenger numbers because of it.

That's why God gave us multi storey car parks.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

You need parking of some kind if people bring their cars into the city, a taxi frees up those spaces whether they are surface or multistory, SPSVs have their place alongside LPSVs, CoVid proved that when buses were forced to limit passenger numbers because of it.

True they help, but they should just be a small tiny part of it. In your scenario you're assuming all these people in taxis would otherwise have drove their own car in, but lots, if not most could have got a bus/train/luas instead.

Dick Turnip

Dravokivich wrote: »

Breaking a Red Light is not as binary as speeding. For example if you are within a junction and the light goes red, you still hold right of way and everyone else is obligated to allow you through. A picture will not capture when you entered the junction, just that you are present.

True enough, but the cameras could be used on buses for cars using the bus lane or for cars illegally parked at least.

Also, for red lights could cameras be positioned so they are just catching cars breaking red lights entering a junction, so as vehicles in a yellow box waiting to turn right aren't caught.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Of course it does, it removes that persons car from the road and releases that persons parking space, if a taxi does 10 such journeys then they've removed 10 cars from the road and alleviated the need for 10 parking spaces. You should be encouraging more people to use taxis as well as LPSVs

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-licensing/other-bus-lpsv-licensing-contacts/
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/

But 1 bus removes 50 people doing so. I'm not saying taxis are of no use, of course they are but bus/luas/DART are way more efficient at what your advocating taxis for. And as Dublin streets are so congested, surely we should be pursuing the most efficient ways first.

"So, have been thinking recently....it's crazy that taxis are allowed use bus lanes when they have no passengers. I'm coming around to the idea that they shouldn't be in them at all to be honest."

It's not that crazy and an honest-to-god bus driver disagrees with you.

Taxis are there for convenience. They serve a purpose. Don't you get that?

Have fun with the hangover, OP. Maybe pick a better topic to argue next time. I'm out:-)

Dick Turnip

Deleted User wrote: »

"So, have been thinking recently....it's crazy that taxis are allowed use bus lanes when they have no passengers. I'm coming around to the idea that they shouldn't be in them at all to be honest."

It's not that crazy and an honest-to-god bus driver disagrees with you.

Taxis are there for convenience. They serve a purpose. Don't you get that?

Have fun with the hangover, OP. Maybe pick a better topic to argue next time. I'm out:-)

Well, plenty of people agreed with it...and regarding the bus driver, they've only just joined the thread so it's not like I was arguing with them all this time? Anyway, I broadly agreed with what they were saying!

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

But 1 bus removes 50 people doing so. I'm not saying taxis are of no use, of course they are but bus/luas/DART are way more efficient at what your advocating taxis for. And as Dublin streets are so congested, surely we should be pursuing the most efficient ways first.

Only if you devise a way for the Luas/Bus/Dart whatever to go from A (start) to B(dart/luas etc) to C(Dart/Luas/Bus to D (Destination ), rather than just the B to C

Example to get from Portrane to Dublin UCD for 9.00

First suggestion from TFI
33B/41C/155 starting at 06.19 Duration 1hour 56 mins

I suppose we could always put more buses on the road to cover all routes

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

Only if you devise a way for the Luas/Bus/Dart whatever to go from A (start) to B(dart/luas etc) to C(Dart/Luas/Bus to D (Destination ), rather than just the B to C

Example to get from Portrane to Dublin UCD for 9.00

First suggestion from TFI
33B/41C/155 starting at 06.19 Duration 1hour 56 mins

I suppose we could always put more buses on the road to cover all routes

Taxi from Portrane to UCD? Jesus... if students can afford a taxi every day their doing well!

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Only if you devise a way for the Luas/Bus/Dart whatever to go from A (start) to B(dart/luas etc) to C(Dart/Luas/Bus to D (Destination ), rather than just the B to C

Example to get from Portrane to Dublin UCD for 9.00

First suggestion from TFI
33B/41C/155 starting at 06.19 Duration 1hour 56 mins

I suppose we could always put more buses on the road to cover all routes

You seem to think I'm saying ban taxis?

07Lapierre

IMO It’s a moot point. No point banning taxis from bus lanes. This morning on my commute there were at least 20 cars In the bus lane on the R139...not one of them was a taxi! As mentioned already, enforcement of existing rules and hefty fines /penalty points for those caught would do wonders.

I also can’t understand why Dublin Bus aren’t campaigning for stricter enforcement? They don’t seem to care!

Dick Turnip

Yeah, you're probably right tbf.

Bus cameras that can record offences and issue fines/points would surely sort out cars illegally using bus lanes pretty quickly.

GT89

07Lapierre wrote: »

I also can’t understand why Dublin Bus aren’t campaigning for stricter enforcement? They don’t seem to care!

Because Dublin Bus are just an operator. The NTA are in charge of Dublin Bus nowadays.

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

Taxis are not private cars they are by definition SPSVs, Small Public Service Vehicles

so if we legally classified taxis as giraffes, they would by definition be large, long necked herbivores of the african savannah?
this is not about what the legal definition of a taxi is.

being a public service vehicle, and being allowed use a bus lane, are two different concepts anyway. i am allowed in the bus lane if i cycle, but my bike is not an SPSV. it's possible to discuss the idea of banning taxis from bus lanes without touching on the definition of SPSV.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

You seem to think I'm saying ban taxis?

No I think you are just suggesting that they don't perform the same thing as a bus, where as I say they do the function of a 1-8 passenger bus, do you want 53 seater buses running on all the roads, so that people can always get a bus, maybe quadruple the bus numbers so the waiting time at stops is reduced.

You think you have solved the cities PT problems but in reality your sore head has no idea of the realities of the world.

07Lapierre

Agree 100%! If the Gardai would accept video evidence from bus cameras, that would be a game changer! Once that happens we could then ban taxis from bus lanes!

magicbastarder

the boss of me wrote: »

I've been driving buses in Dublin for the last 15 years and trust me ... It's not taxis slowing up buses its motorists.

you've never driven down george's street at 11pm so?
i have walked faster from camden street to dame street late at night faster than buses have moved.

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

they do the function of a 1-8 passenger bus

a one passenger bus. god help us.
all cars are buses now.

07Lapierre

GT89 wrote: »

Because Dublin Bus are just an operator. The NTA are in charge of Dublin Bus nowadays.

Ah ok... so why don’t the NTA look for enforcement of bus lane rules?

GT89

magicbastarder wrote: »

a one passenger bus. god help us.
all cars are buses now.

Well we had double decker buses operating as 17 passenger buses until about 2 weeks ago. So under those guidelines a Hiace minibus should be a 3 passenger bus under 2m social distancing

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

so if we legally classified taxis as giraffes, they would by definition be large, long necked herbivores of the african savannah?
this is not about what the legal definition of a taxi is.

being a public service vehicle, and being allowed use a bus lane, are two different concepts anyway. i am allowed in the bus lane if i cycle, but my bike is not an SPSV. it's possible to discuss the idea of banning taxis from bus lanes without touching on the definition of SPSV.

Are you for real? You're a mod - and you're posting cr*p like this.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

so if we legally classified taxis as giraffes, they would by definition be large, long necked herbivores of the african savannah?
this is not about what the legal definition of a taxi is.

being a public service vehicle, and being allowed use a bus lane, are two different concepts anyway. i am allowed in the bus lane if i cycle, but my bike is not an SPSV. it's possible to discuss the idea of banning taxis from bus lanes without touching on the definition of SPSV.

You managed to park that car at B yet? Just asking as you seem to be avoiding answering it.

As to this post, this is where we differ, a public service vehicle ( large or small ) is so designated because it services a public need, if that public need is to travel from A2B with the minimum of fuss then why even contemplate banning taxis from bus lanes.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you for real? You're a mod - and you're posting cr*p like this.

yes, this is 'rhetoric'.

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

You managed to park that car at B yet? Just asking as you seem to be avoiding answering it.

I have! My “A” has a private driveway, my “B” has a private car park. Sometimes I stop at “C” on my way to “B”! “C” has free parking spaces just outside the door.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

No I think you are just suggesting that they don't perform the same thing as a bus, where as I say they do the function of a 1-8 passenger bus, do you want 53 seater buses running on all the roads, so that people can always get a bus, maybe quadruple the bus numbers so the waiting time at stops is reduced.

You think you have solved the cities PT problems but in reality your sore head has no idea of the realities of the world.

I haven't said once that this would solve the city's PT problems

I've said a few times now in the thread that there are other ways of helping ease congestion for buses more (proper enforcement, bus cameras), doesn't mean we can't discuss this one either though.

A taxi does all that you're advocating (covering routes not workable on PT, avoiding parking issues, an option for people who may not be able to use PT) whether they use the bus lane or not though?

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

You managed to park that car at B yet?

sorry, this is clearly important to you. speaking on a personal basis, the standard examples where i can choose between public transport and a car, i have parking available. *however*, if i didn't, i don't believe this informs the debate on whether taxis should be allowed in bus lanes.
you are referring again to the definition of a taxi as an SPSV or a PSV. to be clear, i don't think the definition of a vehicle as an SPSV or PSV is sufficient on its own, to allow it to use a bus lane.

Spook_ie

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's why God gave us multi storey car parks.

So your answer is to build multistory carparks to release the on street parking spaces for redevelopment, an interesting concept, interesting but not thought through, if you make parking even easier isn't that going to encourage more people to bring their cars to the city for the convenience of not having to wait for PT or sitting next to some junkie on the bus. Regardless of how much extra time they spend in traffic? And when the gridlock prevents the buses from turning right or left at a junction, what then?

07Lapierre

Dick Turnip wrote: »

I haven't said once that this would solve the city's PT problems

I've said a few times now in the thread that there are other ways of helping ease congestion for buses more (proper enforcement, bus cameras), doesn't mean we can't discuss this one either though.

A taxi does all that you're advocating (covering routes not workable on PT, avoiding parking issues, an option for people who may not be able to use PT) whether they use the bus lane or not though?

It’s called “entitlement”! Nobody likes having their “rights” taken away.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

So your answer is to build multistory carparks to release the on street parking spaces for redevelopment, an interesting concept, interesting but not thought through, if you make parking even easier isn't that going to encourage more people to bring their cars to the city for the convenience of not having to wait for PT or sitting next to some junkie on the bus. Regardless of how much extra time they spend in traffic? And when the gridlock prevents the buses from turning right or left at a junction, what then?

Well we both agree that we shouldn't be encouraging people to drive in to town where possible at least.

I think you ought to make walking, cycling and PT the most convenient option though, not taxis.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

sorry, this is clearly important to you. speaking on a personal basis, the standard examples where i can choose between public transport and a car, i have parking available. *however*, if i didn't, i don't believe this informs the debate on whether taxis should be allowed in bus lanes.
you are referring again to the definition of a taxi as an SPSV or a PSV. to be clear, i don't think the definition of a vehicle as an SPSV or PSV is sufficient on its own, to allow it to use a bus lane.

No that part of the thread related to your assumption that people using a taxi doesn't help alleviate congestion.
I'm saying it does and await your rebuttal with an example of how you using a car and parking it ( even at your designated place at work ) doesn't affect congestion by +1, where as using a taxi for the same journey would result in a congestion figure of -1

As regards your " HOWEVER " then one would have to assume that if you didn't have your own parking space provided by your workplace then you would be using a public parking space further adding to the congestion.

As regards the definition of SPSV/LSPV and should they be allowed to use the same road space, if you can figure a way to get DB etc. to quadruple the number of vehicles then I might agree with you but the amount of vacant space in a bus lane without a bus in it for a couple of Km is a colossal waste of the infrastructure which can be used for SPSVs

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well we both agree that we shouldn't be encouraging people to drive in to town where possible at least.

I think you ought to make walking, cycling and PT the most convenient option though, not taxis.

Jeez how many times Taxis are PT!

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

I haven't said once that this would solve the city's PT problems

I've said a few times now in the thread that there are other ways of helping ease congestion for buses more (proper enforcement, bus cameras), doesn't mean we can't discuss this one either though.

A taxi does all that you're advocating (covering routes not workable on PT, avoiding parking issues, an option for people who may not be able to use PT) whether they use the bus lane or not though?

But you'd penalise those whose option is to use a PT taxi by forcing them to sit in the traffic gridlock.

07Lapierre

Taxis are private cars for hire. It’s time they were reclassified in law as such.

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

But you'd penalise those whose option is to use a taxi by forcing them to sit in the traffic gridlock.

Yes.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

if that public need is to travel from A2B with the minimum of fuss then why even contemplate banning taxis from bus lanes.

That's fair enough unless you getting from A2B with the minimum of fuss starts clogging up busy bus routes I guess.

There is one bus lane I can think of that taxis are banned from, it's the stretch at Camden Court Hotel, driving south from Camden Street towards Rathmines. I'm pretty sure only buses can drive straight ahead, whereas all other vehicles including taxis have to go around the Bleeding Horse and by the Odeon.

So perhaps, not a blanket ban, but a few more lanes in city centre or busy routes to be made bus only.