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Another Child Grooming Gang Busted - 32 Charged

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    #542
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RandRuns wrote: »
    There are some posters on this thread that strongly subscribe to the Noble Savage myth, where they can't believe that the exotic and childlike "primitives" they believe muslims to be, could do any wrong, and who believe that they are doing muslims a service by tying the grooming gangs to all muslims, and pretending any mention of it is bigotry.

    It is an incredibly racist (not to mention idiotic) position, but I have found it to be remarkably common in certain activist types.
    I Know a lady in her 60's who is on the board of a traveller quango, and she dismisses any talk about traveller crime with "ah shure the poor craturs don't know any better" - the attitude of the "but catholics/protestants/white men do it too" posters is exactly the same, just couched in more "educated" (or less honest) language.

    I don't believe anyone here thinks that muslims can do no wrong!
    Everyone, and I mean everyone can do wrong.

    I think the issue is some posters trying to say that these child abusers are child abusers because they are muslims.
    That's not good enough and there is no proof that their religion has any influence on their perverted actions.


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    #543
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,974 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Depending on how much of the review you have read, and where you place the emphasis, the report certainly points towards an over representation of Asian and Black ethnicities in gang based CSE. Take the following two CEOP investigations:





    The bolded part is emphasis placed by me, given that White British is about 80% of the population, this would certainly suggest that something is not quite right. The 2011 census has Asian ethnicity at about 7%.

    Does this mean all Muslims/other ethic group are serial gang rapists? Hell no. The data sets will also have been skewed by use of high profile cases. Does it suggest that some more robust data collection and investigation is needed? Most definitely. Education about personal responsibility and parenting wouldn't go amiss judging by the interview with a father of men convicted in one of the cases.

    The report does not point any fingers as to a firm conclusion, but scratch a bit below the headline and there is still a lot more that is needed to be done to stop these type of gangs being able to operate.

    Good post and to the point, "Asian" child molester gangs are disproportionately over represented which in a roughly 80% white country is a big issue and something that needs to be tackled and not swept under the carpet, The report also did not explore if there are any religious element involved in the crimes.


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    #544
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I don't believe anyone here thinks that muslims can do no wrong!
    Everyone, and I mean everyone can do wrong.

    I think the issue is some posters trying to say that these child abusers are child abusers because they are muslims.
    That's not good enough and there is no proof that their religion has any influence on their perverted actions.

    They're not abusing them just because they're Muslims, but it is not racist to discuss the fact that they are Muslims, their victims weren't, and wonder what the hell went on there.


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    #545
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I don't believe anyone here thinks that muslims can do no wrong!
    Everyone, and I mean everyone can do wrong.

    I think the issue is some posters trying to say that these child abusers are child abusers because they are muslims.
    That's not good enough and there is no proof that their religion has any influence on their perverted actions.

    It's more cultural than religious certainly.


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    #546
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    They're not abusing them just because they're Muslims, but it is not racist to discuss the fact that they are Muslims, their victims weren't, and wonder what the hell went on there.

    I never suggested it was racist to discuss facts!
    I just don't believe that religion has a big influence on whether someone is a child abuser or not.
    I think people are just rapists and abusers


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    #547
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    It's more cultural than religious certainly.

    Yes, I agree


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    #548
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    There is also an element of muslim superiority to these gangs - white non muslim girls are fair game because they are essentially trash - these gangs never have muslim girls as victims to the best of my knowledge.


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    #549
    RageCondom420
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3 ✭RageCondom420


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Yes, I agree

    100%. Critiquing certain groups' cultural compatibility in Ireland will often get you branded a racist.

    I do not believe that the Nigerian culture mixes well with that of the Irish (In general) - While I only have and real experience dealing with other African nationalities, I can say that Kenyans and Namibians are generally quite respectful and humble, with a great work ethic.

    Nothing to do with skin colour, some cultures just don't or don't want to integrate with us.


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    #550
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    It's more cultural than religious certainly.
    Most definitely. This issue is most certainly cultural rather than religious. When was the last time we heard about Persian/Iranian child grooming/rape gangs?


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    #551
    WrenBoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Which culture are you referring to ? I would say the "Asian" culture used here would be so broad as to be meaningless.


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    #552
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Pakistani basically.


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    #553
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I never suggested it was racist to discuss facts!
    I just don't believe that religion has a big influence on whether someone is a child abuser or not.
    I think people are just rapists and abusers

    I dont disagree, and in fairness, we seem to agreed on a few points.

    As far as I know there is no main stream religion that prescribes pedophilia. Membership of a particular religion does not make you a paedophile.

    But in this instance, the fact they were Muslim and given cultural role of Islam in certain communities, it needs to be considered as part of the 'conversation'. It can't be just ignored, if some learnings can come out if it.

    If they were Catholic, Jew, Protestant or FSM I'd be asking the same questions.


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    #554
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    They're not abusing them just because they're Muslims, but it is not racist to discuss the fact that they are Muslims, their victims weren't, and wonder what the hell went on there.

    In what way? They chose vulnerable targets based on being easy prey. Had the easiest option been muslim kids, that would have been the target.

    The men being Muslim I dont believe played a part in regards their attitudes or behaviour. they didnt DATE young girls, they raped them and no religion or culture supports that in actual practice. If their religion was actually guiding them, they wouldnt even be engaging in sex or alcohol.


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    #555
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    In what way? They chose vulnerable targets based on being easy prey. Had the easiest option been muslim kids, that would have been the target.

    You'll have evidence of this claim i presume?
    They would have raped any kids had they been available.
    Maybe they did.

    "They chose targets..."
    And therein is the nub of it, and where your argument falls... They groomed them.
    This wasn't opportunistic. It was well planned and managed.

    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    The men being Muslim I dont believe played a part in regards their attitudes or behaviour. they didnt DATE young girls, they raped them and no religion or culture supports that in actual practice. If their religion was actually guiding them, they wouldnt even be engaging in sex or alcohol.

    What an argument- couldn't have been their religion, because they shouldn't have been drinking...

    What a conundrum we have.
    Was it cultural or not. If you accept it was cultural, you have to query the religious element. If not cultural, what was it? Coincidence?
    These guys viwed their victims as trash, as beneath them

    According to one victim quoting attacker, certainly suggess a sectarian element:

    White girls and non-Muslim girls are bad because you dress like slags. You show the curves of your bodies (showing the gap between your thighs means you’re asking for it) and therefore you’re immoral. White girls sleep with hundreds of men. You are the other girls. You are worthless and you deserve to be gang-raped.”

    If religion played no part, you'd imagine they wouldn't have shouted the usual slogans being led away


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    #556
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    yosser hughes wrote: »
    I wonder is this happening here?
    Human nature being human nature....yeah. Plus we already had similar when we had a domestic entitled unassailable group. And people rushed to their defence then, and I'm sure people will rush to the defence of any new child molesting group.

    That's people for ya.


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    #557
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    You'll have evidence of this claim i presume?
    They would have raped any kids had they been available.
    Maybe they did.

    "They chose targets..."
    And therein is the nub of it, and where your argument falls... They groomed them.
    This wasn't opportunistic. It was well planned and managed.




    What an argument- couldn't have been their religion, because they shouldn't have been drinking...

    What a conundrum we have.
    Was it cultural or not. If you accept it was cultural, you have to query the religious element. If not cultural, what was it? Coincidence?
    These guys viwed their victims as trash, as beneath them

    According to one victim quoting attacker, certainly suggess a sectarian element:

    White girls and non-Muslim girls are bad because you dress like slags. You show the curves of your bodies (showing the gap between your thighs means you’re asking for it) and therefore you’re immoral. White girls sleep with hundreds of men. You are the other girls. You are worthless and you deserve to be gang-raped.”

    If religion played no part, you'd imagine they wouldn't have shouted the usual slogans being led away

    You cant be so silly. You cant be.

    Your arguement is that they didnt 'choose' them because they were groomed? Are you suggesting the attackers had no say in who their victims were? Of course they were ****ing chosen! Of course they were selected. They were selected for grooming ffs!

    You ask for evidence, wheres yours? Where in this thread have any of you absolutely obsessed with religion people shown evidence?

    Their religion specifically does not allow alcohol or sex yet these chaps engaged in both. So for all that is sacred please explain why you think their religion was at the center of this issue and their behaviour? There is nothing in their demeaner or behaviour to suggest they were actually genuinely practicing muslims. You are so quick to dismiss any other angle or opinion yet your exact dismissal can be turned to your own argument.

    Pick up a book on the subject. Read it. Then read more. You may just gain some insight into an attackers mindset and how they operate. If you really want to push the boat out, take some courses on criminology, psychology and sexual deviancy.

    What I am saying here is not a secret. Sexual attackers, murderers and the various overlapping groups are well studied. How they operate, how they calculate, how they select victims is all laid out over thousands of pages of studies. I dare say at some stage these exact cases will be subject to even more detailed study.


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    #558
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    You cant be so silly. You cant be.

    Your arguement is that they didnt 'choose' them because they were groomed? Are you suggesting the attackers had no say in who their victims were? Of course they were ****ing chosen! Of course they were selected. They were selected for grooming ffs!

    You ask for evidence, wheres yours? Where in this thread have any of you absolutely obsessed with religion people shown evidence?

    Their religion specifically does not allow alcohol or sex yet these chaps engaged in both. So for all that is sacred please explain why you think their religion was at the center of this issue and their behaviour? There is nothing in their demeaner or behaviour to suggest they were actually genuinely practicing muslims. You are so quick to dismiss any other angle or opinion yet your exact dismissal can be turned to your own argument.

    Pick up a book on the subject. Read it. Then read more. You may just gain some insight into an attackers mindset and how they operate. If you really want to push the boat out, take some courses on criminology, psychology and sexual deviancy.

    What I am saying here is not a secret. Sexual attackers, murderers and the various overlapping groups are well studied. How they operate, how they calculate, how they select victims is all laid out over thousands of pages of studies. I dare say at some stage these exact cases will be subject to even more detailed study.

    I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say,

    Of course they were groomed. They were deliberately chosen selected, targeted. etc.
    Not as you claimed earlier, because the Muslim kids were harder to get. Or something.
    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    In what way? They chose vulnerable targets based on being easy prey. Had the easiest option been muslim kids, that would have been the target.

    Your comment, religion couldnt have been a factor because they shouldn't have been drinking either, (or something to that effect) isn't worthy of further comment.

    BTW, I haven't said "their religion was at the center of this issue and their behaviour", I'm saying it was a factor. One of many.


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    #559
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    Human nature being human nature....yeah. Plus we already had similar when we had a domestic entitled unassailable group. And people rushed to their defence then, and I'm sure people will rush to the defence of any new child molesting group.

    That's people for ya.

    Was that the Newcastlewest matter?


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    #560
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say,

    Of course they were groomed. They were deliberately chosen selected, targeted. etc.
    Not as you claimed earlier, because the Muslim kids were harder to get. Or something.



    Your comment, religion couldnt have been a factor because they shouldn't have been drinking either, (or something to that effect) isn't worthy of further comment.

    BTW, I haven't said "their religion was at the center of this issue and their behaviour", I'm saying it was a factor. One of many.

    Jesus wept. Right, whatever.


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    #561
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Jesus wept. Right, whatever.

    I see you've reached the end of the road!


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    #562
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    In what way? They chose vulnerable targets based on being easy prey. Had the easiest option been muslim kids, that would have been the target.

    The men being Muslim I dont believe played a part in regards their attitudes or behaviour. they didnt DATE young girls, they raped them and no religion or culture supports that in actual practice. If their religion was actually guiding them, they wouldnt even be engaging in sex or alcohol.
    Wrong

    most gang rapes in Ireland are commited by white catholics.

    most in the UK are committed by white Protestants.

    Stop with the blatant lobsided ****e. It doesnt stand up to scrutiny when you actually reasearch the subject

    Can you please provide evidence that confirms your statement. Still waiting.


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    #563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    1800_Ladladlad wrote: »
    Can you please provide evidence that confirms your statement. Still waiting.

    80% of the population identified as Catholic in the last census. Over 90% identified as white. A look at the names and colour of the skin of people in articles I already posted should suffice.

    I also linked to an incredible detailed study on the subject and the Irish prison service statistics can be found here: https://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2/#:~:text=There%20are%204%2C209%20people%20in,prison%20space%E2%80%9D%20was%20%E2%82%AC75%2C349.

    I am still awaiting a shred ov evidence supporting the conclusions drawn in this thread


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    #564
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    80% of the population identified as Catholic in the last census. Over 90% identified as white. A look at the names and colour of the skin of people in articles I already posted should suffice.

    I also linked to an incredible detailed study on the subject and the Irish prison service statistics can be found here: https://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2/#:~:text=There%20are%204%2C209%20people%20in,prison%20space%E2%80%9D%20was%20%E2%82%AC75%2C349.

    I am still awaiting a shred ov evidence supporting the conclusions drawn in this thread

    Not one mention of ethnicity in that link.
    Not one.

    Not one piece of evidence to support your claim about Protestants either.


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    #565
    RandRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Not one mention of ethnicity in that link.
    Not one.

    Not one piece of evidence to support your claim about Protestants either.

    Imagine of you used that posters "evidence" ("A look at the names and colour of the skin of people in articles I already posted should suffice") the other way around - you would immediately be tarred as a racist, nazi, bigot, etc. etc.

    Sauce and Geese come to mind.


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    #566
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RandRuns wrote: »
    Imagine of you used that posters "evidence" ("A look at the names and colour of the skin of people in articles I already posted should suffice") the other way around - you would immediately be tarred as a racist, nazi, bigot, etc. etc.

    Sauce and Geese come to mind.

    Theres a very poor standard of 'evidence' provided by one side, yet who demand a very high standard.


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    #567
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RandRuns wrote: »
    Imagine of you used that posters "evidence" ("A look at the names and colour of the skin of people in articles I already posted should suffice") the other way around - you would immediately be tarred as a racist, nazi, bigot, etc. etc.

    Sauce and Geese come to mind.

    This entire thread is alledging that Muslims make up a higher portion of sexual assault suspects and are led to be sexual predators based on religion. Without any evidence at all being provided.

    the links I provided refered to males that are white and Catholic. Some Irish, one Russian. I also refered to the Rape crisis centres detailed study on the subject.
    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Theres a very poor standard of 'evidence' provided by one side, yet who demand a very high standard.

    You havent provided anything, not a single user pointing the finger at Muslims has provided evidence


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    #568
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    This entire thread is alledging that Muslims make up a higher portion of sexual assault suspects and are led to be sexual predators based on religion. Without any evidence at all being provided.

    Wrong. No one is claiming they do*
    And no has claimed their religion is the sole reason. However, it ( due to their culture) may have something to do with it.

    The statistics show Muslims don't make up a higher portionof sex offenders. (You'll have to point out who said it).
    What do do say is they make up a higher proportion of Type 1 sex offenders as a function of population.

    Heres where you struggle. Majority just means the biggest number of something. As an 80% majority white country, you expect the majority of any crime to be white. Its not being argued otherwise, as you claim.
    But the important bit, utterly lost on you, is the over representation of "Asian" offenders as a function of population in a certain type of sex offending. Thats a PC. way of saying there's a problem.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-characteristics-of-offending

    Key findings:
    • Research on offender ethnicity is limited, and tends to rely on poor quality data. It is therefore difficult to draw conclusions about differences in ethnicity of offenders, but it is likely that no one community or culture is uniquely
    predisposed to offending.
    • A number of studies have indicated an over-representation of Asian and Black offenders in group-based CSE. Most of the same studies show that the majority of offenders are White.



    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/what-do-we-know-about-the-ethnicity-of-sexual-abuse-gangs

    What do we know about the ethnicity of group abusers?
    The latest data we have on this is from the 2013 CEOP study. It reports 57 cases of Type 1 group abuse in 2012, and police provided ethnicity data on 52 of these.

    Half of those Type 1 cases involved all-Asian groups. 21 per cent were all-white groups, and 17 per cent were groups containing multiple ethnicities.

    75 per cent of recorded Type 1 group abusers, who target victims based on their vulnerability, were Asian. The Office for National Statistics estimates that 7.5 per cent of the UK’s population are Asian.

    17 per cent of Type 1 offenders were white, compared to 86 per cent of the UK population.


    (All Type2 were white)





    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    the links I provided refered to males that are white and Catholic. Some Irish, one Russian. I also refered to the Rape crisis centres detailed study on the subject.

    Any link you have provided has spectacularly failed to support any claim. Your prison one was your magnum opus.

    *Yet you've alleged most sex offenders in Britain are Protestant. Withdraw it or prove it

    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    You havent provided anything, not a single user pointing the finger at Muslims has provided evidence

    What are you trying to say?


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    #569
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think Mike you are emphasising the wrong issue.
    It's not their religion.
    It's their culture and background that seem to be the common factor. That is not the religion, if it was then surely we would see disproportionate amounts of Muslim abusers from all countries? But we dont


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    #570
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,931 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    What are you trying to say?


    That you’re going to great lengths to say “I’m not saying it’s because they were Muslim, but maybe they were influenced to do what they did because they were Muslim” :D


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    #571
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I think Mike you are emphasising the wrong issue.
    It's not their religion.
    It's their culture and background that seem to be the common factor. That is not the religion, if it was then surely we would see disproportionate amounts of Muslim abusers from all countries? But we dont


    Yrs/no.
    You can't separate their religion from their culture.
    I'm not saying they did because of their religion/culture, but it may have had something to do with it. To discuss isn't racist.

    Sajid Javid [former Home Secretary from Rochdale)

    The home secretary, Sajid Javid, has defended calling a convicted sexual grooming gang “sick Asian paedophiles”, arguing that noting the ethnicity of the perpetrators was a key element in tackling such crimes.

    Any normal person looking at the recent convictions of gangs that abuse children would have noticed that a vast majority are from a Pakistani heritage and we cannot ignore that. If you do ignore that, if you sit in a position of power like me and you ignore that, what you actually end up doing is fuelling the voices of extremism that are out there that will then prey on that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/03/sajid-javid-defends-noting-the-ethnicity-of-child-grooming-gang


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