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Another Child Grooming Gang Busted - 32 Charged
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One eyed Jack wrote: »That you’re going to great lengths to say “I’m not saying it’s because they were Muslim, but maybe they were influenced to do what they did because they were Muslim”
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-terrorism-a8261831.html0 -
MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
From your own article -
The problem isn’t the text itself; it’s how it’s fundamentally interpreted. In fact, there are many cases of Bible quotes being used to justify terrible human injustices, like the enslavement of people from Africa, antisemitism and violence towards LGBT+ people.
...
All the major world religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, have also at some time been associated with extreme human rights abuses against men, women and children.
I experienced horrific, religiously sanctioned sexual violence and torture – so I definitely believe that we need to be aware of religious extremism as something potentially harmful, so that we can protect people from it.
But for Tommy Robinson and his followers to focus on an entire religion, based on the cruel interpretations of some scriptures by some people, is unhelpful, to say the least. Many of his religious theories and conjecture are not anything that I can relate to in my real life experiences.
Most grooming gang survivors I know absolutely condemn anti-Islamic hate, and we’re uncomfortable with English Defence League protests. We certainly don’t want random attacks on “all Muslims”. You can’t cure harm with more harm. Free-thinking men from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, like Nazir Afzal, agree, and many deal with all of this incredibly graciously.
As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I am told that both child protection services and the prosecution of offenders is improving in most areas. But frustratingly, prevention hasn’t really begun.
I witnessed the ways young men are groomed to become perpetrators by older grooming gang members. It’s very similar to the tactics used in grooming for terrorism, with love-bombing, emotive language (“brother”, “cuz”, “blud”), and promises of wealth and fame, then humiliation, controlling with guilt and shame, training with weapons, and instilling hate and fear of outsiders.
Always, at the same time, they continue to convince these young men that they must find girls to be gang-raped too.
The key point isn’t that Islam itself or religion of any description is inherently influential in encouraging all the awful behaviours and attitudes displayed by a small minority of people towards others. The key differentiator is how that minority of people who commit abuse in this case, interpret the same texts to suit themselves in order to justify their attitudes and behaviour towards other people.
Tommy Robinson is just the other extreme - pretending to use the issue of child sexual abuse to further his own agenda against “de fordiners”.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »From your own article -
The problem isn’t the text itself; it’s how it’s fundamentally interpreted. In fact, there are many cases of Bible quotes being used to justify terrible human injustices, like the enslavement of people from Africa, antisemitism and violence towards LGBT+ people.
...
All the major world religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, have also at some time been associated with extreme human rights abuses against men, women and children.
I experienced horrific, religiously sanctioned sexual violence and torture – so I definitely believe that we need to be aware of religious extremism as something potentially harmful, so that we can protect people from it.
But for Tommy Robinson and his followers to focus on an entire religion, based on the cruel interpretations of some scriptures by some people, is unhelpful, to say the least. Many of his religious theories and conjecture are not anything that I can relate to in my real life experiences.
Most grooming gang survivors I know absolutely condemn anti-Islamic hate, and we’re uncomfortable with English Defence League protests. We certainly don’t want random attacks on “all Muslims”. You can’t cure harm with more harm. Free-thinking men from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, like Nazir Afzal, agree, and many deal with all of this incredibly graciously.
As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I am told that both child protection services and the prosecution of offenders is improving in most areas. But frustratingly, prevention hasn’t really begun.
I witnessed the ways young men are groomed to become perpetrators by older grooming gang members. It’s very similar to the tactics used in grooming for terrorism, with love-bombing, emotive language (“brother”, “cuz”, “blud”), and promises of wealth and fame, then humiliation, controlling with guilt and shame, training with weapons, and instilling hate and fear of outsiders.
Always, at the same time, they continue to convince these young men that they must find girls to be gang-raped too.
The key point isn’t that Islam itself or religion of any description is inherently influential in encouraging all the awful behaviours and attitudes displayed by a small minority of people towards others. The key differentiator is how that minority of people who commit abuse in this case, interpret the same texts to suit themselves in order to justify their attitudes and behaviour towards other people.
Exactly, its what I've consistenty said.
Not all Muslims are paedophiles.
But to deny the role of their faith in these particular perpetrators actions, is as ridiculous as denying the role of their faith in the actions of ISIS
Did you deliberately omit this text:
"As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white c***” as they beat me.
They made it clear that because I was a non-Muslim, and not a virgin, and because I didn’t dress “modestly”, that they believed I deserved to be “punished”. They said I had to “obey” or be beaten."0 -
MikeOxsgreen wrote: »Exactly, its what I've consistenty said.
Not all Muslims are paedophiles.
But to deny the role of their faith in these particular perpetrators actions, is as ridiculous as denying the role of their faith in the actions of ISIS
What is this intended to mean, is the problem. What do you mean not all Muslims are paedophiles? We know that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t paedophiles, so suggesting that for the small minority of Muslims who are paaedophiles that their religion is an influencing factor, is complete nonsense. It really is as ridiculous as saying that their faith has anything to do with the actions of ISIS. Clearly there is some distinguishing factor other than religion which compels a tiny minority of people (both men and women), to behave in ways which are absolutely inconsistent with their religion, as demonstrated by the fact that more than 90% of their adherents of any given religion do not engage in child sexual exploitation.MikeOxsgreen wrote: »Did you deliberately omit this text:
Yes.0 -
MikeOxsgreen wrote: »Yrs/no.
You can't separate their religion from their culture.
I'm not saying they did because of their religion/culture, but it may have had something to do with it. To discuss isn't racist.
Sajid Javid [former Home Secretary from Rochdale)
The home secretary, Sajid Javid, has defended calling a convicted sexual grooming gang “sick Asian paedophiles”, arguing that noting the ethnicity of the perpetrators was a key element in tackling such crimes.
Any normal person looking at the recent convictions of gangs that abuse children would have noticed that a vast majority are from a Pakistani heritage and we cannot ignore that. If you do ignore that, if you sit in a position of power like me and you ignore that, what you actually end up doing is fuelling the voices of extremism that are out there that will then prey on that.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/03/sajid-javid-defends-noting-the-ethnicity-of-child-grooming-gang
Yes you absolutely can separate the religion from their culture. Because they are not the same thing.
That quote you put in even states they are from Pakistani heritage, nothing, absolutely nothing to do with their religion.0 -
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Yes you absolutely can separate the religion from their culture. Because they are not the same thing.
That quote you put in even states they are from Pakistani heritage, nothing, absolutely nothing to do with their religion.
Culture is heavily influenced by religion. Why do you think we'll all be celebrating Christmas come the 25th?0 -
This is where you're wrong.One eyed Jack wrote: »What is this intended to mean, is the problem. What do you mean not all Muslims are paedophiles? We know that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t paedophiles, so suggesting that for the small minority of Muslims who are paaedophiles that their religion is an influencing factor, is complete nonsense.
Mohammad, the most perfect man that ever lived if you ask any Muslim, did marry and consummate the marriage before her tenth birthday. This is written in the Quran.
The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina.
She brought her dolls to Mohammed which even within Islam indicates she was still a child (if anyone stupid enough would even wonder about this).
Hanafi and Ja'fari schools of classical Islamic jurisprudence interpret the "age of marriage", in the Quran (24:59;65:4), as the beginning of puberty.
'Büchler and Schlater mention that the schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhaahib) set the following marriageable ages for boys and girls:[291]
Male consent Female consent Sect
12 9 Sunni
15 9 Shia
While in western Europe the marriage age was lower than today it was never that low (Vikings married at early teens).
In Israel during Jesus time the Jews married during teen years. Mary and Joseph were both in their teens when Jesus was born, around sixteen and eighteen respectively.0 -
This is where you're wrong.
Mohammad, the most perfect man that ever lived if you ask any Muslim, did marry and consummate the marriage before her tenth birthday. This is written in the Quran.
The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina.
She brought her dolls to Mohammed which even within Islam indicates she was still a child (if anyone stupid enough would even wonder about this).
Hanafi and Ja'fari schools of classical Islamic jurisprudence interpret the "age of marriage", in the Quran (24:59;65:4), as the beginning of puberty.
'Büchler and Schlater mention that the schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhaahib) set the following marriageable ages for boys and girls:[291]
Male consent Female consent Sect
12 9 Sunni
15 9 Shia
While in western Europe the marriage age was lower than today it was never that low (Vikings married at early teens).
In Israel during Jesus time the Jews married during teen years. Mary and Joseph were both in their teens when Jesus was born, around sixteen and eighteen respectively.
It took me a minute to realise you were saying I’m wrong about the the idea that for the small minority of Muslims whom we know are paedophiles, that their religion is an influential factor is complete nonsense. I noted that you say it’s the majority of traditional sources, which is fair enough, but the majority of contemporary sources are of the opinion that Aisha would likely have been of the age of maturity, or rather she would have been a teenager at the time, which wouldn’t have been unusual age for marriage in any society really.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on the marriage age thing either, when it was rather the age of maturity in any given society was the determining factor for various purposes, such as their being used for child prostitution -
During the Victorian era, the age of consent was only 13 years old. Child labor still existed at the time. Many lower-class people saw their children as commodities because they could bring income into the family. Boys and girls as young as 11 or 12 could pass as 13-year-olds and had no choice but to enter the trade if their parents sold them into it.
W.T. Stead, who has been called the very first investigative journalist, published “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon” in Pall Mall Magazine. During his investigation, Stead took it upon himself to prove how easy it was to purchase the virginity of a 13-year-old girl. For a mere £5, Stead purchased someone’s daughter, whom he called “Lily.” This covered the cost of a medical examination to ensure that she was a virgin, and a cut also went to the brothel owner. Since she was still a child, Lily’s parents, who were alcoholics, were the ones who took the money she earned as a prostitute.
After confirming that she was a virgin, the medical examiner recommended that Stead drug her with chloroform so she would be unconscious and not put up a struggle while he raped her. The public was horrified when they read Stead’s articles, and his work led to the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885, which made the age of consent 16 years old.
W.T. Stead is seen as a hero for fighting for the rights of women, and he was nominated with a Nobel Peace Prize. He died on the Titanic in 1912. Today, the Stead Memorial Fund continues to fight against sex trafficking.
Prostitution In The Victorian Era
Really not at all different from modern society, and feckall to do with Muhammad or Aisha or any of the rest of that nonsense. Everything to do with just being pretty fcuked up in their own heads.0 -
Never knew about that Stead fella. Very interesting story0
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One eyed Jack wrote: »It took me a minute to realise you were saying I’m wrong about the the idea that for the small minority of Muslims whom we know are paedophiles, that their religion is an influential factor is complete nonsense. I noted that you say it’s the majority of traditional sources, which is fair enough, but the majority of contemporary sources are of the opinion that Aisha would likely have been of the age of maturity, or rather she would have been a teenager at the time, which wouldn’t have been unusual age for marriage in any society really.
This study agrees somewhat with you.
What Drives Child Marriage in the Arab World and How the World is Combating the Problem
https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1779&context=student_scholarshipThe Author next explores in details the main causes of child marriages in the Arab World. He first explores the influence of religion on child marriage. He argues that religion has had some impact but is not the main driver of child marriage.
and somewhat with me.Some Muslims who are in favor of child marriage at very young age claim that the reason the prophet permitted Aisha to take her dolls to his house and play with them after their marriage was because she hadn’t reached puberty.
Scholars won't agree on this so it's unlikely you and I will, but - as long as it's unclear what age she really was then that opens up for child marriages. I doubt paedophiles will change their minds as long as they have (some/all) Islam backing them up.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »What is this intended to mean, is the problem. What do you mean not all Muslims are paedophiles? We know that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t paedophiles, so suggesting that for the small minority of Muslims who are paaedophiles that their religion is an influencing factor, is complete nonsense. It really is as ridiculous as saying that their faith has anything to do with the actions of ISIS. Clearly there is some distinguishing factor other than religion which compels a tiny minority of people (both men and women), to behave in ways which are absolutely inconsistent with their religion, as demonstrated by the fact that more than 90% of their adherents of any given religion do not engage in child sexual exploitation.
Yes.
That you deliberately omitted the text saying they're (perpetrators) admitting doing it (raping) because the girls weren't Muslim speaks volumes to your intentions to ignore this aspect of the problem.
And you're now contradicting yourself, first claiming they're a an abberation within their religion for mis-interpretating their religious texts, but now seem to be grasping a new straw, that its their culture is to blame.
Its like when one link proves something you deny, you switch tack, and when that's subsequently proven, you try a new argument.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Never knew about that Stead fella. Very interesting story
Tell me that Stead chap didn't actually rape the child though, he was just demonstrating how easy child sex was easy to get?0 -
I doubt paedophiles will change their minds as long as they have (some/all) Islam backing them up.
But this is what I’m saying, is that paedophiles will use whatever justification suits their purposes to justify their behaviour, and when it comes to child sexual exploitation, people will use any justification there too, because they know what they’re doing is wrong, but at least if they have some reason to justify their behaviour, it gives them permission in their own heads to do what they do, whether it’s abusing children themselves, or pimping out children to other people who share their predilection for abusing and sexually exploiting children. Certainly to the point where how they treat children can become normalised among themselves (while at the same time they know that outside the group, their attitudes and behaviours are unacceptable), like the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan -
Bacha bāzī (Persian: بچه بازی, lit. "boy play"; from بچه bacheh, "boy", and بازی bazi "play, game") is a slang term in some parts of Afghanistan for a custom involving child sexual abuse between older men and young adolescent males or boys, who are called dancing boys. The custom is connected to sexual slavery and child prostitution. In the 21st century, Bacha bazi is reportedly practiced in various parts of Afghanistan. Force and coercion are common, and security officials state they are unable to end such practices because many of the men involved in bacha bazi-related activities are powerful and well-armed warlords.
They’re not Dancing Boys in the UK or Ireland or mainland Europe, but child sexual exploitation and prostitution while it’s not “common” in Europe, it’s main driver as noted in the conclusion of the paper you linked to, is poverty, and the people who wish to exploit the vulnerable and impoverished because they know they are in a position where they are able to get away with it -
Child marriage has been recognized by most of the world as slave like practices, and great progress has been made to eradicate this evil and inhumane practice. However, a lot more is still needed. Many people mistakenly believe that religion and cultural practices are the main causes of child marriage. But that is not accurate, as this article has analyzed, poverty is the main cause of child marriage and if the international community wants to eliminate child marriage they can do so by eliminating poverty.
That paper was in relation to child marriage though. This article is in relation to child prostitution on the German/Czech border -
The United Nations children's agency says child prostitution is rising across the German border in the Czech Republic. Even children under the age of six are sold to German sex tourists.
The children wait by supermarkets, restaurants and gas stations along the Czech motorways just across the border from Germany. Pimps, often parents or siblings, hand babies and small children into the cars of waiting sex tourists. The market for sex with children is booming on the Czech-German border, Cathrin Schauer a social worker in the border region said.
"Young children less than six years old are offered to the sex tourists by women, whereas the older ones are usually accompanied by men or male teenagers," Schauer said. "But eight-year-olds come along on their own and do their own negotiations about payment and sexual practices."
Schauer wrote the report for UNICEF on the basis of her observations over the course of several years. It was released on Tuesday in Berlin.
The children come from poor families, Schauer explained. Their mothers are often drug addicts or prostitutes themselves. But the kids don't necessarily come from the border region. Pimps bring them there from throughout Eastern Europe. Some children, including babies, are sold to the foreign customers to serve as prostitutes in western Europe.
Stolen Youth: Child Prostitution Plagues German-Czech Border
I’m not saying one situation in one country is worse than another or trying to distract from one set of circumstances by giving examples of similar circumstances. I’m saying that more common to them all is generally the fact that the victims are in no position to be able to defend themselves, and they are generally isolated and living in destitution already. It’s a bit late when all these stories come out in the media for anyone to be pointing fingers and looking to blame people on the basis of their own biases, when those same biases would see them criticise the same victims for being a burden on “civilised” society.0 -
MikeOxsgreen wrote: »That you deliberately omitted the text saying they're (perpetrators) admitting doing it (raping) because the girls weren't Muslim speaks volumes to your intentions to ignore this aspect of the problem.
And you're now contradicting yourself, first claiming they're a an abberation within their religion for mis-interpretating their religious texts, but now seem to be grasping a new straw, that its their culture is to blame.
Its like when one link proves something you deny, you switch tack, and when that's subsequently proven, you try a new argument.
I deliberately omitted the text because it wasn’t relevant to the point I was making? In spite of you just doing a link dump without any explanation, I was still able to determine that you were using the first few lines of the article to support your opinion. More of the same old “here’s someone who agrees with me” stuff going on. I certainly didn’t ignore it. I didn’t say their culture or background were to blame either. The one thing that makes them stand out, which you have yet to address, is acknowledging the fact that they, as individuals, CHOSE to engage in child sexual exploitation. You’re trying to find some greater meaning where there just isn’t any. They simply picked their victims that they figured they could get away with abusing and nobody would care. Turns out they weren’t all that wrong.0 -
different culture which you have no knowledge of and neither do the majorityHunky Monster wrote: »Very Asian sounding names but not Japanese or Chinese, wonder what the connection is here.
of catholic "moral brigade\western society"==
let me remind you Bible mary "mother" was estimated as 14 years of age
hence being impregnated by whatever means is today pedophile.
good chance your great or grandparents or their generation may have births at 12 to 14 years of age.
Many theories as to todays "stance" from population control to childizing humans for as long as possible
to aid the sustaining of those in positions of power and authority.0 -
i have read most of what you have published here many many years ago.One eyed Jack wrote: »But this is what I’m saying, is that paedophiles will use whatever justification suits their purposes to justify their behaviour, and when it comes to child sexual exploitation, people will use any justification there too, because they know what they’re doing is wrong, but at least if they have some reason to justify their behaviour, it gives them permission in their own heads to do what they do, whether it’s abusing children themselves, or pimping out children to other people who share their predilection for abusing and sexually exploiting children. Certainly to the point where how they treat children can become normalised among themselves (while at the same time they know that outside the group, their attitudes and behaviours are unacceptable), like the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan -
Bacha bāzī (Persian: بچه بازی, lit. "boy play"; from بچه bacheh, "boy", and بازی bazi "play, game") is a slang term in some parts of Afghanistan for a custom involving child sexual abuse between older men and young adolescent males or boys, who are called dancing boys. The custom is connected to sexual slavery and child prostitution. In the 21st century, Bacha bazi is reportedly practiced in various parts of Afghanistan. Force and coercion are common, and security officials state they are unable to end such practices because many of the men involved in bacha bazi-related activities are powerful and well-armed warlords.
They’re not Dancing Boys in the UK or Ireland or mainland Europe, but child sexual exploitation and prostitution while it’s not “common” in Europe, it’s main driver as noted in the conclusion of the paper you linked to, is poverty, and the people who wish to exploit the vulnerable and impoverished because they know they are in a position where they are able to get away with it -
Child marriage has been recognized by most of the world as slave like practices, and great progress has been made to eradicate this evil and inhumane practice. However, a lot more is still needed. Many people mistakenly believe that religion and cultural practices are the main causes of child marriage. But that is not accurate, as this article has analyzed, poverty is the main cause of child marriage and if the international community wants to eliminate child marriage they can do so by eliminating poverty.
That paper was in relation to child marriage though. This article is in relation to child prostitution on the German/Czech border -
The United Nations children's agency says child prostitution is rising across the German border in the Czech Republic. Even children under the age of six are sold to German sex tourists.
The children wait by supermarkets, restaurants and gas stations along the Czech motorways just across the border from Germany. Pimps, often parents or siblings, hand babies and small children into the cars of waiting sex tourists. The market for sex with children is booming on the Czech-German border, Cathrin Schauer a social worker in the border region said.
"Young children less than six years old are offered to the sex tourists by women, whereas the older ones are usually accompanied by men or male teenagers," Schauer said. "But eight-year-olds come along on their own and do their own negotiations about payment and sexual practices."
Schauer wrote the report for UNICEF on the basis of her observations over the course of several years. It was released on Tuesday in Berlin.
The children come from poor families, Schauer explained. Their mothers are often drug addicts or prostitutes themselves. But the kids don't necessarily come from the border region. Pimps bring them there from throughout Eastern Europe. Some children, including babies, are sold to the foreign customers to serve as prostitutes in western Europe.
Stolen Youth: Child Prostitution Plagues German-Czech Border
I’m not saying one situation in one country is worse than another or trying to distract from one set of circumstances by giving examples of similar circumstances. I’m saying that more common to them all is generally the fact that the victims are in no position to be able to defend themselves, and they are generally isolated and living in destitution already. It’s a bit late when all these stories come out in the media for anyone to be pointing fingers and looking to blame people on the basis of their own biases, when those same biases would see them criticise the same victims for being a burden on “civilised” society.
biased line of western culture and religion runs through it all.
the pharoahs were not "poor" and many other dictats from a point of view
can and are beingdismissed as the citizens of the planet look at why a
complete business has grown around sex and age with the Fake
"save the children" words which did not nor does not save the 100s of
thousands of "children" killed\maimed\mentally traumatized and forced to flee
their countries by western usa and allies interfeering in their countries eg iraq\
libya\afghanistan\syria etc .
the greatest crime is those in cultures that ban or remove "sex" due to fake morals
formed by certain religious dictats WHICH leaves no instruction\practise etc.
which leaves humans vulnerable to abuse.
if you dont know what it is or how it is done you can be abused. the political fail is
by claiming those they kept purposefully ignorant "cannot consent"..0 -
Do you think that inviting people from cultures where paedophilia is common, into a country where we have just managed to kerb it is a good idea?One eyed Jack wrote: »But this is what I’m saying, is that paedophiles will use whatever justification suits their purposes to justify their behaviour, and when it comes to child sexual exploitation, people will use any justification there too0 -
what do you mean "curb" as in removed alcoholics\murderers\thieves\corrupt politicians\gays (not natural by nature)Do you think that inviting people from cultures where paedophilia is common, into a country where we have just managed to kerb it is a good idea?
and humans whom are kept ignorant.
the topic is good headlines for rags but also points out ignorance of many and power grab by politicians playing on
fake morals and empathy call.0 -
Do you think that inviting people from cultures where paedophilia is common, into a country where we have just managed to kerb it is a good idea?
I don’t agree with the premise of the question at all. I don’t care where someone comes from, I don’t think we have managed to curb paedophilia here, not by a long shot, but I don’t think it’s common, any more than I don’t think paedophilia is common in Middle Eastern countries or Sub-Saharan Africa or the Indian continent - these are vast populations, as opposed to Ireland with it’s what, 7m people and the vast majority of them indigenous to Ireland.
Do you imagine there isn’t an Arab version of biko suggesting that their society could do with less paedophiles from Ireland? I’d say myself it’s entirely likely.0 -
There is too much "I think" in your post and not enough "This source says".
Don't search your feelings, search the internet.0 -
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There is too much "I think" in your post and not enough "This source says".
You asked me what I think, safe to assume that I would be the source for my own opinion when asked what I think. I think the way you framed the question was loaded af, but I did my best with it to give you an honest answer.0 -
Not much response to my contribution == ya all need to read a bit such as clancy (she did backpeddle under
political correctness dictats but read without political bias) or try Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (assumed gay in hiding
again political) along with others.
THE horse bolting or rabbit out of cage is Why the french had age of consent 13 whilst others had 18.
This points out the governments decreed its citizens at 18 were only as mentally capable as 13 year olds
and less in other countries.
to use usa expression ya all like bein dumbasses0 -
Yes, you are right. I phrased the question badly.One eyed Jack wrote: »You asked me what I think, safe to assume that I would be the source for my own opinion when asked what I think. I think the way you framed the question was loaded af, but I did my best with it to give you an honest answer.
We currently have not had any grooming gangs in Ireland*. I envision that immigration of the same cultures that represent the grooming gangs in UK will cause gangs to spread here too. Do you agree with this vision?
*I am not counting many incidents by single priests as "gangs".
I assume this is some attempt at humour, but if you can find this on the internet it could be good for a laugh.One eyed Jack wrote: »Do you imagine there isn’t an Arab version of biko suggesting that their society could do with less paedophiles from Ireland? I’d say myself it’s entirely likely.0 -
There is no response because your posts doesn't make much, if any, sense.Not much response to my contribution == ya all need to read a bit such as clancy (she did backpeddle under
political correctness dictats but read without political bias) or try Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (assumed gay in hiding
again political) along with others.
THE horse bolting or rabbit out of cage is Why the french had age of consent 13 whilst others had 18.
This points out the governments decreed its citizens at 18 were only as mentally capable as 13 year olds
and less in other countries.
to use usa expression ya all like bein dumbasses0 -
Yes, you are right. I phrased the question badly.
We currently have not had any grooming gangs in Ireland*. I envision that immigration of the same cultures that represent the grooming gangs in UK will cause gangs to spread here too. Do you agree with this vision?
*I am not counting many incidents by single priests as "gangs".
We have, multi-generational grooming gangs in fact, I linked to them earlier and I can provide similar examples of circumstances where children are the victims of sexual exploitation perpetuated by Irish adults. I’m not counting any incidents by priests as gangs either, I’m more concerned with pointing out that organisations and the way they are set up have protected paedophiles and child abusers in this country, and still do to a large extent where child abuse is kept “within the family” as it were. We absolutely do have grooming gangs In Ireland, they simply don’t stand out as much because the people involved profess to share the same values as ourselves so we trust them. Very similar to the way in which the perpetrators in the UK were no doubt well respected members of their communities, while behind closed doors they were abusing children they knew nobody gave a shìt about.
“Immigration of the same cultures that represent grooming gangs”, they’re already here, they’ve been here for centuries, they haven’t had to immigrate. I don’t agree with your vision because you’re having to assume grooming gangs are a part of immigrants culture, and they’re not a part of the culture the immigrants are expected to integrate into. They’re not doing anything different that isn’t done already by the locals. Their values aren’t all that different from the same values that saw their victims being treated like dirt in the first place by the society they are members of. We can’t seriously pretend to play dog in a manger and pretend to give a crap about children only when there’s a suggestion they were being abused by immigrants.I assume this is some attempt at humour, but if you can find this on the internet it could be good for a laugh.
I’d be more interested in what you think yourself tbh.0 -
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And things evolved after western cultures increased the existing divide between church and state and saw the error of the previous tradition. As you note previously the age of legal marriage = start of puberty, though in most cases people were not married at 12 or 14.different culture which you have no knowledge of and neither do the majority
of catholic "moral brigade\western society"==
let me remind you Bible mary "mother" was estimated as 14 years of age
hence being impregnated by whatever means is today pedophile.
good chance your great or grandparents or their generation may have births at 12 to 14 years of age.
There are many reasons for the changes.Many theories as to todays "stance" from population control to childizing humans for as long as possible
to aid the sustaining of those in positions of power and authority.
1) it was realised that getting pregnant and giving birth at the start of puberty carried a high risk of death to the mother and child. Before modern medical science this risk was very high.
2) The more educated people become the ages of marriage go up. Even before the legal change generally the poorer the couple the younger the age of marriage. This trend is seen throughout the world no matter where one looks. The exceptions to this were in royal families who made marriages that were about control of power and often married off the young to reinforce them. Even that was going out of fashion by the 16th century.
3) Advances in neurology and other sciences showed that the brain and mind are nowhere close to adult levels at such young ages. It's why we stopped executing children too.
Well of course. This is the West. And it's more about post enlightenment philosophy than religion. If it were the Christian religion we'd likely still have very young marriages, no contraception, adulterers being thrown in prison(nearly always women) and little equality for women and men for that matter in making such choices for themselves.i have read most of what you have published here many many years ago.
biased line of western culture and religion runs through it all.
Must have missed where anyone suggested they were. Pharaohs were unimaginably wealthy and powerful for the time. They were literally considered living gods.the pharoahs were not "poor"
I agree 100% with you here. The biggest reason for the current war between the ideology of the West and the ideology of Islam is almost entirely down to a couple of European(British and French mostly) and later American and Soviet powers using the Middle East as a resource and then a battleground. A perfect example is Iran. America and her allies propped up that prick the Shah and all his corrupt cronies and he spent billions on idiocies while a large proportion of his people starved. Ayatollah Khomeini was quite understandably seen by many Iranians as the hope for the future. Western(mostly US) propaganda at the time made out the Shah being deposed was a tragedy. It wasn't for many Iranians or he wouldn't have lost. America is still pissed off that Iran is still there. Or EyerRan as they call it. They interfered in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia(with the power there happy for them to do so) and Afghanistan(well the Soviets and the Brits and the US have hit that country). The 19th century was even worse. The Middle East was a football kicked around by western powers and their corrupt leader friends in the region.not save the 100s of
thousands of "children" killed\maimed\mentally traumatized and forced to flee
their countries by western usa and allies interfeering in their countries eg iraq\
libya\afghanistan\syria etc .
Again the West has moved further and further away from the superstition of religion. America is very much the exception on that score. American politicians regularly refer to God and that gets them votes, in Europe they'd lose votes or be openly laughed at. If an American politician said he or she was an atheist it would be political suicide. America is not the "West" and vice versa. It's one part of it and many Europeans would agree with many in the Middle East about how badly America(and others) have screwed over that part of the world.the greatest crime is those in cultures that ban or remove "sex" due to fake morals
formed by certain religious dictats WHICH leaves no instruction\practise etc.
which leaves humans vulnerable to abuse.
if you dont know what it is or how it is done you can be abused.
Oh and Christianity had plenty of instruction in religious law and it evolved over time, most of it based on Roman(and Byzantine, because of Justinian and his major influence on Latin jurisprudence) legal systems, which in turn became the wider state law. Though unlike say Islam, in Europe the church and state were seen as separate entities from the start. With separate hierarchies and courts of law. The Irish know all too well how bad things can get when a religion becomes too much allied to the state and we don't want that nonsense again.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I deliberately omitted the text because it wasn’t relevant to the point I was making? In spite of you just doing a link dump without any explanation, I was still able to determine that you were using the first few lines of the article to support your opinion. More of the same old “here’s someone who agrees with me” stuff going on. I certainly didn’t ignore it. I didn’t say their culture or background were to blame either. The one thing that makes them stand out, which you have yet to address, is acknowledging the fact that they, as individuals, CHOSE to engage in child sexual exploitation. You’re trying to find some greater meaning where there just isn’t any. They simply picked their victims that they figured they could get away with abusing and nobody would care. Turns out they weren’t all that wrong.
Not at all.
I linked an interview to a survivor.
She quoted her attackers - and their reasons the gave her for her abuse, a passage of text you deliberately omitted to reproduce that contravened your view, but reproduced the text (you think) that supports your view in proving me wrong, yet the article supports my persistent position...
I have consistently said not all Muslims are paedos (you consistently miss this), and attack me of targeting all Muslims , yet cant find any evidence to support what you accuse me of.
Yet there is an issue among certain communities in the UK backed up by the stats, their own community leaers, and a former Home Secretary from the area, himself a Muslim. All this seems to escape you. You put it down to opportunistic chance. And try convince us that there is no issue.
You're arguing without a single shred of evidence to support your view, and decry others where they quote victims, perpetrators and community leaders, who all tell you you're wrong.
Its not just me.0 -
MikeOxsgreen wrote: »I linked an interview to a survivor.
She quoted her attackers - and their reasons the gave her for her abuse, a passage of text you deliberately omitted to reproduce that contravened your view, but reproduced the text (you think) that supports your view in proving me wrong, yet the article supports my persistent position...
I’m not interested in proving you wrong? I took your link dump on good faith that it represents what you needed it to represent, while also showing that it had a broader context than just as I said - you doing your “here’s someone who agrees with me” thing again. Did I leave out the part of it that I assumed you were suggesting supports your argument? Of course I did, because I saw no reason to include it, every chance given you just link dumped you had been unlikely to have read the parts of the article which contradicts the opinions you’re attempting to insinuate belong to a victim of these child abusers.MikeOxsgreen wrote: »I have consistently said not all Muslims are paedos (you consistently miss this), and attack me of targeting all Muslims , yet cant find any evidence to support what you accuse me of.
I don’t miss it, because I continue to question what you mean by it, because it reads to me as if you’re suggesting that the vast majority of Muslims ARE paedos, in order to say NOT ALL Muslims are paedos. I think you’re well aware of what you’re doing and trying to be clever about it.MikeOxsgreen wrote: »Yet there is an issue among certain communities in the UK backed up by the stats, their own community leaers, and a former Home Secretary from the area, himself a Muslim. All this seems to escape you. You put it down to opportunistic chance. And try convince us that there is no issue.
You're arguing without a single shred of evidence to support your view, and decry others where they quote victims, perpetrators and community leaders, who all tell you you're wrong.
Its not just me.
I’ve never said there is no issue, I’ve said the issue isn’t what you’re making it out to be based upon your own biases. I know for a fact I provided evidence already in the thread to support my view, but here it is again, specifically reproduced for your benefit as you missed it the first time -One eyed Jack wrote: »Nope, it isn’t clear at all, not even proportionally so based upon notions of proportional representation. It’s an impossibility to quantify with any degree of certainty given the clandestine nature of the offences involved, not just solely the demographics of either the perpetrators, or their victims -
The Quilliam report, Group Based Child Sexual Exploitation: Dissecting Grooming Gangs, written by Haras Rafiq and Muna Adil, claims that 84% of grooming gang offenders are Asian, the majority “of Pakistani origin with Muslim heritage”. That figure quickly caught the headlines, cementing the narrative of an “epidemic” of Asian grooming gangs.
The report faced fierce criticism from academic researchers. Ella Cockbain, a lecturer in security and crime science, is an expert on child sexual exploitation. She said it “is a case study in bad science: riddled with errors, inconsistencies, a glaring lack of transparency, sweeping claims and gross generalisations unfounded its own ‘data’”.
...
Beyond the inflammatory rhetoric, what are the facts? Surprisingly few. Certainly, the media have highlighted many cases involving Asian men grooming girls, often white, for sexual exploitation. Media coverage is, however, a poor gauge of facts.
Nazir Afzal is the Crown Prosecution Service’s former lead on child sexual abuse and the prosecutor most responsible for bringing down grooming gangs. The media, he observes, pounce on cases involving Asians, but often ignore those involving white perpetrators.
“Grooming gang” is not a legal category. Group-based child sexual exploitation (CSE) falls under a range of offences, from rape to conspiracy to incite prostitution. In only some cases, often when non-whites are involved, is ethnicity recorded. All this makes it difficult to ascertain the facts and behoves us to be cautious.
We’re told 84% of grooming gangs are Asian. But where’s the evidence?
Bold emphasis my own.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I’m not interested in proving you wrong? I took your link dump on good faith that it represents what you needed it to represent, while also showing that it had a broader context than just as I said - you doing your “here’s someone who agrees with me” thing again. Did I leave out the part of it that I assumed you were suggesting supports your argument? Of course I did, because I saw no reason to include it, every chance given you just link dumped you had been unlikely to have read the parts of the article which contradicts the opinions you’re attempting to insinuate belong to a victim of these child abusers.
I don’t miss it, because I continue to question what you mean by it, because it reads to me as if you’re suggesting that the vast majority of Muslims ARE paedos, in order to say NOT ALL Muslims are paedos. I think you’re well aware of what you’re doing and trying to be clever about it.
I’ve never said there is no issue, I’ve said the issue isn’t what you’re making it out to be based upon your own biases. I know for a fact I provided evidence already in the thread to support my view, but here it is again, specifically reproduced for your benefit as you missed it the first time -
Bold emphasis my own.
No where have I said all Muslims are paedos, I've repeatedly said the contrary- yet according to you I'm only saying that so I can say they are....
How does someone engage with someone equipped with such logic...
Your whole argument is collapsing in on itself in a mess of contradictions and denials.
You've admitted selectively posting text from an interview with a survivor I provided, that (along with the official statistics) supports my position, but justify your action claiming I hadn't read it and didn't know what I posted....And then accused me of being biased....
This would be hilllarious if not such a serious subject.0 -
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MikeOxsgreen wrote: »No where have I said all Muslims are paedos, I've repeatedly said the contrary- yet according to you I'm only saying that so I can say they are....
How does someone engage with someone equipped with such logic...
Your whole argument is collapsing in on itself in a mess of contradictions and denials.
You've admitted selectively posting text from an interview with a survivor I provided, that (along with the official statistics) supports my position, but justify your action claiming I hadn't read it and didn't know what I posted....And then accused me of being biased....
This would be hilllarious if not such a serious subject.
Give over with the faux indignation, you’re obviously beside yourself with glee at your own cleverness.
I didn’t say you said all Muslims are paedos, it’s quite obvious from what you are saying though, that you’re trying to imply the vast majority of Muslims ARE paedos, when it’s quite clear that the number of paedos among Muslims aren’t any higher than any other social group. Most sources hover around the 5 to 10% figure.
Yes I selectively quoted from it, and so what? I’ve already explained why I selectively quoted from a link you didn’t bother to quote the relevant parts from to support your argument. I had to go looking for evidence to support your argument! I don’t just accuse you of being biased, it’s evident you are biased given you keep wishing to imply that religion had anything to do with the actions of these men who chose to commit the criminal actions they did in the UK where they knew what they were doing to their victims was illegal.
What you’re doing is trying to suggest that they chose to commit rape because of their religion, which is very much like the promoters behind the “rape culture” nonsense. The following is RAINN’s take on “rape culture”. It relates to campus sexual assault, but it translates just as easily to your assertions about Muslims in this particular instance (could just as easily refer to any other group in society) -
Perpetrators of Campus Sexual Assault: What We Know
In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.
While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.
By the time they reach college, most students have been exposed to 18 years of prevention messages, in one form or another. Thanks to repeated messages from parents, religious leaders, teachers, coaches, the media and, yes, the culture at large, the overwhelming majority of these young adults have learned right from wrong, and enter college knowing that rape falls squarely in the latter category.
Research supports the view that to focus solely on certain social groups or “types” of students in the effort to end campus sexual violence is a mistake. Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes. Other studies suggest that between 3-7% of college men have committed an act of sexual violence or would consider doing so. It is this relatively small percentage of the population, which has proven itself immune to years of prevention messages, that we must address in other ways. (Unfortunately, we are not aware of reliable research on female college perpetrators.)
https://www.rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf
Again, bold emphasis my own.0
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