Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

Tony EH

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

Most large events (concerts, festivals, sports) have ambulances nearby for situations such as this.

Are you really trying to equate last nights events in DC with the Electric Picnic?

Or is my sarcasm meter on the blink as well?

oldtimeyfella

Tony EH wrote: »

Are you really trying to equate last nights events in DC with the Electric Picnic?

Or is my sarcasm meter on the blink as well?

I'm talking more about the law of averages i suppose.


Big crowds/events can often produce a couple of deaths due to various circumstances and that seems to have been what happened here outisde of the cop and the ex airwoman.


Of course because it has something to do with Trump he personally descended upon the crowd and choked the other 3 to death whilst cackling like a cartoon villian.

Tony EH

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

I'm talking more about the law of averages i suppose.

Big crowds/events can often produce a couple of deaths due to various circumstances and that seems to have been what happened here outisde of the cop and the ex airwoman.

No. That still doesn't work.

This was an attempt to storm a building by an armed mob, some of whom had blood on their minds.

It's wasn't a Bruce Springsteen gig.

What.Now

Donald Trump wrote: »

You are applying logic to what is, for an awful lot of otherwise logical people, an illogical decision that they make based purely on the "team" they support.

I am. voting is a logical process.

Lets take a look at the states. You have 2 candidates. You want one of the two to be be elected so you vote for that person.

So lets say you decide to vote for Trump

Following on from that, what would make you do that?

You Like one him
- He has helped you out in the past
- he has helped your family out in the past
- he is good for your community
- he is implementing the policies for the country that you believe that should be implemented
- He wants to **** up your neighbour that you don't like

You Dislike one candidate (Biden)
- Because he worked under a Black president?
- Because he's a commie?
- Because what?

If they follow the logic they move away from voting Republican for just this election like the Dems did under Regan (Which I think was a disaster, but might not have been the start of this decrepit part of history), if not they are Trumpers.

If Republicans can't see the difference between Republicans and Trumpers than they are Trumpers

Hellotonever

Die in comical fashion to defend narcissistic manchild millionaire, only for him to call you all criminals the next day while conceding.

How much humiliation can they take?

oldtimeyfella

Hellotonever wrote: »

Die in comical fashion to defend narcissistic manchild millionaire, only for him to call you all criminals the next day while conceding.

How much humiliation can they take?

They won't even register that.

It'll be written off as Trump "having to work within the system" and they will still continue to fight for the ideas that he represents.

Isn't he the guy that said he could walk out onto 5th Avenue and shoot someone and his people would still vote for him.

quokula

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

I'm talking more about the law of averages i suppose.


Big crowds/events can often produce a couple of deaths due to various circumstances and that seems to have been what happened here outisde of the cop and the ex airwoman.


Of course because it has something to do with Trump he personally descended upon the crowd and choked the other 3 to death whilst cackling like a cartoon villian.

Do you seriously think it's normal / expected that at any given gathering of a few hundred people for an hour or two, three or four of them will literally just drop dead instantly of natural causes, having been well enough that morning to travel and take part in a rally?

redarmy

BREAKING. I’m outside the US Capitol. A police officer just walked by with a flash light, shined it in our parked SUV & other parked cars. Many officers, holding assault rifles, run down Constitution Ave. An officer just told me, “you might want to clear the area.”
@nbcwashington

Zaph

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

the 3 others that died seemed to have just been natural causes (there were a bunch of half dead pensioners shambling around and plenty of mobility scooters there)

The three who died were a 55 year old man whose family said he had a heart attack, a 50 year old man and a 34 year old woman. No indication of cause of death for the other two yet, but they certainly weren't half-dead pensioners.

briany

Trump: I WILL NEVER CONCEDE!

(s#it gets real due to Trump's incitement)

Trump: Eh, actually I do concede. Pwease don't pwosecute mee. (pouty face)

corny

briany wrote: »

Trump: I WILL NEVER CONCEDE!

(s#it gets real due to Trump's incitement)

Trump: Eh, actually I do concede. Pwease don't pwosecute mee. (pouty face)

I think it struck a little too close to home for Trump. The political class (rich people) wouldn't be thrilled at the sight of the mob attacking government buildings. The status quo allows Donald to **** in a golden toilet ffs. Who'd want to jeopordise that.

Once **** got really real they were all spouting the same rhetoric. Go home plebs and work the 9 to 5.;)

prinzeugen

Zaph wrote: »

The three who died were a 55 year old man whose family said he had a heart attack, a 50 year old man and a 34 year old woman. No indication of cause of death for the other two yet, but they certainly weren't half-dead pensioners.

One fell to his death climbing up the side of the building. Video doing the rounds on Twitter. Looks like he fell 40-60ft.

Maxpfizer

jill_valentine wrote: »

The police officer was beaten to death. Three others died of complications coming from their own stupidity/tazers. The remainder dies a traitor. The fact more didn't die is a question of minutes.

All of those people should be alive, and would be, along with about 300,000 others, if Trump was remotely competent and a bunch of chumps weren't eager for every two bit con he sold them because they've spent too much time online to understand how it intersects with reality anymore.

The 300,000 others is surely not a reference to COVID deaths?

You cannot seriously think that under a different president that the USA would have somehow almost no deaths from COVID?

Are you sure you are fully connected to reality yourself?

Overheal

Saw those videos of the woman being shot by the Secret Service in the senate chamber. Wholly justified. Even before you know anything about her, they don’t know she’s not a suicide bomber or something, they just know people under their care are still trapped in the chamber and these lunatics have them surrounded and are crawling through the doors for reasons clearly not innocent.

Would have been helpful if Trump sympathizers in the Capitol police force didn’t just open up the barriers and usher them into the Capitol. There’s a reason the House Sergeant at Arms and the Senate Sergeant at Arms and the Capitol Police chiefs heads have all rolled for this.

Just seen a new video as I typed this. Capitol police LET THEM get to the chamber. They only got serious when the Secret Service opened fire.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ksijs3/you_can_clearly_see_the_police_walking_back_down/

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ksolcp/capital_police_waving_people_in_past_the_gates/

ToddDameron

What's the craic with people annoyed at the leniency of the police? Was there not a bunch of reforms since the George Floyd protests to reduce heavy handedness?

Overheal

ToddDameron wrote: »

What's the craic with people annoyed at the leniency of the police? Was there not a bunch of reforms since the George Floyd protests to reduce heavy handedness?

This wasn’t “leniency” it was collusion, based on raw media we are seeing.

ToddDameron

Overheal wrote: »

This wasn’t “leniency” it was collusion, based on raw media we are seeing.

Trump made moves in the defense department in the days leading up to the siege too. He put in more acting chiefs and they made it so all requests for force escalation had to be approved by the defense Secretary. Those memos came on Jan 4 and 5. This was a coup d’êtait.

Pretty feeble and clearly futile coup attempt, a bunch of oddballs taking over a building for an evening.

Still, I see plenty of people drawing contrasts to the George Floyd protests wondering why we didn't see that level of police brutality, which seems odd, as there has been police reform since then to stop those police actions being repeated.

jill_valentine

ToddDameron wrote: »

Pretty feeble and clearly futile coup attempt, a bunch of oddballs taking over a building for an evening.

https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347289098697003008

The difference between this being a massacre and something you can pretend was nothing was about 15 minutes.

breezy1985

ToddDameron wrote: »

Pretty feeble and clearly futile coup attempt. Still, I see plenty of people drawing contrasts to the George Floyd protests wondering why we didn't see that level of police brutality, which seems odd, as there has been police reform since then to stop those police actions being repeated.

Police reform was to stop police being heavy handed with single individuals in a domestic setting.This was an invasion of parliament by a mob



But you already know the difference and are just trying to play the same stupid "two sides" card many have been trying all day

ToddDameron

jill_valentine wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347289098697003008

The difference between this being a massacre and something you can pretend was nothing was about 15 minutes.

OK. Not exactly an example of a potentially successful coup though is it? A coup was simply impossible. I'm not condoning anything, but suggestions of a coup are a tad deluded. Saying it's not a realistic coup attempt is hardly calling it nothing.

ToddDameron

breezy1985 wrote: »

Police reform was to stop police being heavy handed with single individuals in a domestic setting.This was an invasion of parliament by a mob



But you already know the difference and are just trying to play the same stupid "two sides" card many have been trying all day

I'm afraid you can't tell my political beliefs off a single post. There were actually reforms on arrest techniques in any setting. Why would they exclusively focus on domestic settings? Nonsensical.

jill_valentine

Maxpfizer wrote: »

The 300,000 others is surely not a reference to COVID deaths?

You cannot seriously think that under a different president that the USA would have somehow almost no deaths from COVID?

Are you sure you are fully connected to reality yourself?

The current real death toll is thought to be at least 400,000 thousand due to deliberate undercounting in places like Florida last year. We'll never actually know how many are dead because Trump's lackeys obscured the data.

Yes, I believe the overwhelming number of those people would still be alive under competent national leadership because both infection and mortality becomes exponential after a tipping point. One infected person makes multiple infected people, once ICUs hit capacity most critical cases over that ceiling will die by default, and the lack of ongoing financial support means that a lot of the people least likely to survive infection are the people most likely to work "essential" jobs.

The US should have had every advantage in the world with the world leading CDC and the pandemic response unit they inherited from Obama and Trump defunded.

Hellotonever

Why didnt a cop draw a gun and magdump on the rushing crowd?

You know they could’ve.

jill_valentine

ToddDameron wrote: »

OK. Not exactly an example of a potentially successful coup though is it? A coup was simply impossible. I'm not condoning anything, but suggestions of a coup are a tad deluded. Saying it's not a realistic coup attempt is hardly calling it nothing.

If I shot at you with an aim like Mr Magoo, it would still be an attempted murder, because inept attempted murder is still attempted murder. The less organised guys thought Pence was going to overturn the election up until Trump made it apparent he wouldn't, something that was never in Pence's power to do. They searched for the certificates to destroy them as if that would change something, apparently unaware there are 5 other copies of each. That they didn't understand the possible outcomes very well changes nothing.

The more organised guys seem to have intended to follow the Michigan plot, which was to seize the local Congress and execute the politicians inside one by one over the course of several days. They brought at least two bombs, a huge supply of Molotovs, and plenty of food, and there was a gallows constructed outside.

Imagine for a moment the zip tie and rifle guys got into the chamber a few minutes sooner and seized the Congresspeople they were looking for - Trump deliberately withheld National Guard support, so there would have been no help coming for hours. There is absolutely no way Pelosi, Pence, Harris and however many Dems would survive the interim. We now know they had actively colluding police officers both on and off duty, and a likely ally in at least one Senator.

By interrupting the certification process Biden never officially gets declared the next President. Trump has no functional Legislative check on his powers for a while - because everybody is either dead or held captive - and is the only clear coherent (in a sense...) authority. In the meantime, why wouldn't he ask one of his nutcase lackeys to make up some more bull**** for his credulous chumps to lap up "proving" his claims and that he's the real next president after all?

We would be looking at a full blown crisis with all the layers of government between Trump and several rungs down the line of succession hollowed out, something so completely unprecedented that absolutely anything could result from the ensuing chaos, especially with Trump's recent round of firings and installations in the DoD.

Even if it got that far, it would likely fail, but only after a protracted period of outright chaos which would cost many lives. The Proud Boys have a slogan - "six million was not enough". Given how they behave at their events, the consequences of them having free range in that disorder to play that out widely are unthinkable.

Was it likely to be successful? Probably not. Was it possibly successful, yes, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

ToddDameron

Sounds like the script for a Die Hard movie.

jill_valentine

https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1347383871332093952

- West Virginia Delegate Derrick Evans
- Tennessee state lawmaker Terri Lynn Weaver
- Virginia state Senator Amanda Chase
- Pennsylvania State Senator Doug Mastriano
- Missouri State Representative Justin Hill
- Michigan State Representative Matt Maddock

Overheal

Hellotonever wrote: »

Why didnt a cop draw a gun and magdump on the rushing crowd?

You know they could’ve.

That could have also been their Boston Massacre. These people came looking for 1776. I'm rather glad it worked out as calmly as it did, given many of the grim alternatives.

Overheal

ToddDameron wrote: »

Sounds like the script for a Die Hard movie.

These fringe movements literally called themselves the Boogaloo Boys.

I think it's safe to say movies are one of their primary motivators.

in fact we sure do seem to have a whole army of these lone wolves in the US don't we.

Overheal

Claims that they met no police resistance, no instructions to leave, no trespass notices.

Also, the lower police presence was reportedly at the request of DC's Mayor, at her request, a few days beforehand (then **** hit the fan and it became parliamentary):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-protests-washington-guard-military/2021/01/07/c5299b56-510e-11eb-b2e8-3339e73d9da2_story.html

The Pentagon placed tight limits on the D.C. National Guard ahead of pro-Trump protests this week, trying to ensure the use of military force remained constrained, as the Guard carried out a narrow, unarmed mission requested by the city’s mayor to help handle traffic ahead of planned protests.

In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control.

The D.C. Guard was also told it would be allowed to deploy a quick-reaction force only as a measure of last resort, the officials said.

Then the mission abruptly changed — and the Pentagon is now facing criticism from governors and local officials who say it moved too slowly to send National Guard troops to respond, a charge that its leaders denied Thursday.

The Capitol Police, the law enforcement force that reports to Congress and protects the House and Senate, hadn’t requested help from the Guard ahead of Wednesday’s events. But early Wednesday afternoon, its chief made an urgent plea for backup from 200 troops during a call with top Pentagon and city officials, according to officials familiar with the call.

On the call, Capitol Police Chief Steven A. Sund was asked whether he wanted help from the National Guard. “There was a pause,” one of the D.C. officials said. And Sund said yes. “Then there was another pause, and an official from the [office of the] secretary of the Army said that wasn’t going to be possible.”

The Army official — who was speaking on behalf of the secretary of the Army, who was de facto commanding the D.C. Guard but was not on the call — said the “optics” of soldiers inside the Capitol building was not something they wanted, the two District officials said.

Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) confirmed that account in an interview with The Washington Post, saying Capitol Police “made it perfectly clear that they needed extraordinary help, including the National Guard. There was some concern from the Army of what it would look like to have armed military personnel on the grounds of the Capitol.” One concern was whether the Army had been invited by Congress.

A U.S. defense official said the Army general on the call didn’t formally deny the request but rather reinforced the negative optics of having uniformed personnel inside the Capitol, a point on which Bowser had agreed, and later checked with the chain of command. The defense official said Bowser agreed that if further support was necessary, D.C. police would provide it inside the Capitol, and the Guard would backfill D.C. police positions away from the building.

The defense official said the military wanted to be the force of last resort, and that military officials had urged Bowser to request more support from federal law enforcement but that she didn’t do so until Wednesday.

Higher-up leaders at the Pentagon then evaluated the request and activated the full D.C. Guard, in addition to later calling the governors of other states to send their Guard forces as reinforcements. The officials also lifted limits on the Guard for the new mission, arming guardsmen with riot gear, but not guns, before they headed to create a perimeter around the Capitol.

In the roughly three hours it took the Pentagon to make the shift from traffic policing to full-fledged riot response, the Capitol Police found themselves overwhelmed and rioters stormed the building, forcing lawmakers to take cover and barricade themselves in their offices. The Pentagon left it to federal law enforcement to clear the Capitol of the rioters, amid the hesitancy about sending Guard units into the building itself. By the evening, Guard units helped the Capitol Police and federal and city law enforcement reestablish a perimeter around the building.

As Trump backers descend on capital, military hopes to avoid political fray

By Thursday, National Guard forces from across the Mid-Atlantic region were moving into the Washington area.

On Thursday afternoon, 24 hours after the Capitol breach, acting defense secretary Christopher C. Miller called the violence “reprehensible and contrary to the tenets of the United States Constitution.”

“I, and the people I lead in the Department of Defense, continue to perform our duties in accordance with our oath of office, and will execute the time-honored peaceful transition of power to President-elect Biden on January 20,” he said in a statement.

Images of rioters overpowering a light law enforcement force and smashing their way into the Capitol building prompted immediate questions about how such a dramatic security breakdown could occur, especially given that rioters had openly voiced their intent to use violence on social media.

One contributing factor: As the seriousness of the threat became clear, the jumble of jurisdictions and command structures made it more difficult to respond with speed. Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy, who functions as de facto commander of the D.C. National Guard on behalf of the president, because the District is not a state, said 6,200 troops would be positioned in and around the city by the weekend, including Guard forces from Pennsylvania, New York and other nearby states.

Speaking alongside Bowser on Thursday, McCarthy said the military acted as quickly as it could once it received local authorities’ request for additional support and said officials had not been anticipating such a violent event, despite prolific calls on online platforms for violent action to overturn the Nov. 3 election.

McCarthy said officials didn’t in their “wildest imagination” envision rioters breaching Capitol grounds. City leadership had asked the Guard to carry out only a narrow mission, defense officials noted.

The chaotic and violent outcome of the events, which claimed four lives Wednesday, including a rioter who was shot by Capitol Police, came shortly after Trump egged on supporters in an address outside the White House, falsely insisting the election was fraudulent and urging the crowd to fight to keep him in office.

The turmoil follows a divisive year leading up to the election, amid the coronavirus pandemic and civil unrest after the police killing of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man, in May.

The protests triggered by Floyd’s death and race-related violence appeared to have prompted both city and Pentagon officials to opt for a muted response that kept military personnel far from protesters and let local and Capitol police take the lead. The Pentagon came under severe criticism in June, after National Guard forces were on hand when unarmed protesters were forcibly cleared from an area near the White House and front-line troops were positioned outside of Washington.

On Thursday, some local officials complained about a delay in granting their request for additional National Guard help as rioters swarmed the Capitol.

But Guard units arrived less than three hours after local authorities made the emergency request for more help, defense officials said.

The Defense Department controls the D.C. Guard because the military force answers to the president rather than the mayor. The president’s power over the D.C. Guard is delegated to the defense secretary, then the Army secretary, who makes command decisions. It is therefore up to the Pentagon leadership to call state governors if the D.C. Guard needs reinforcement.

Security preparations ahead of Wednesday’s events came after Trump ordered a mass military response to racial justice protests in the nation’s capital this summer, prompting a public outcry when military helicopters flew low over protesters, surveillance assets hovered above the city and residents were left with a sense that the District was being occupied or was under siege.

A U.S. defense official, who like other officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive deliberations, said the military always issues memos outlining the parameters of any mission. The limits added ahead of Wednesday’s events made sense, the official said, given that D.C. officials requested the deployment of only a small contingent of some 340 guardsmen, primarily to control traffic and monitor Metro stations.

“All commanders have left and right limits,” the official said. “There is no such thing as carte blanche.”

The official said that when the mission changed Wednesday afternoon, the Pentagon provided more forces than were requested, bringing in Guard units from outside states and loosening the restrictions, and moved quickly.

The scope of the initial mission request by D.C. and the unique command structure of the D.C. Guard may have made it more difficult for authorities to quickly send guardsmen to aid at the Capitol. Defense leaders defended the timing of the Guard response, citing “confusion” in scoping out a revised mission among multiple agencies and jurisdictions.

Speaking to reporters by phone Thursday, McCarthy said that after violence erupted around 2 p.m. Wednesday, he spoke with Bowser and the request was relayed for about 200 additional soldiers.

“It was at that time we were trying to get to figure out the situation up on the Capitol Hill between our two entities and phone calls from members of Congress and others,” he said.

McCarthy then briefed Miller, who authorized the deployment of all available D.C. Guard troops, some 1,100 soldiers, with the goal of getting them to the D.C. Armory within four hours.

At the same time, McCarthy said, they began trying to pull the approximately 250 Guard troops who were already deployed in D.C., return them to the Armory to don riot gear and redirect them to the Capitol. By early evening, D.C. Guard troops were in place around the Capitol, allowing police and FBI to search the building and clear it for lawmakers’ return.

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan (R) said he received a call from House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.), who said he was in a secure location with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer.

“I was actually on the phone with Leader Hoyer, who was pleading with us to send the guard,” Hogan said. “He was yelling across the room to Schumer and they were back and forth saying we do have the authorization, and I’m saying, ‘I’m telling you we do not have the authorization.’ ”

Hogan said Maj. Gen. Timothy Gowen, the adjutant general of the Maryland National Guard, was repeatedly rebuffed by the Pentagon. “The general . . . kept running it up the flagpole, and we don’t have authorization,” he said.

Ninety minutes later, Hogan said, he received a call “out of the blue, not from the secretary of defense, not through what would be normal channels,” but from McCarthy, who asked if the Maryland guardsmen could “come as soon as possible.”

“It was like, yeah, we’re waiting, we’re ready,” said Hogan, who had already sent 200 State Police troopers at Bowser’s request.

Virginia sent in its Guard after Gov. Ralph Northam (D) received a call from Pelosi asking for help.

Clark Mercer, Northam’s chief of staff, said he received a call from his counterpart in Bowser’s office, who suggested the Defense Department wasn’t moving fast enough and asked for Virginia to send in its own state Guard.

Northam spokeswoman Alena Yarmosky said the governor called up the Guard immediately after talking with Bowser, knowing it would take some time for guardsmen to prepare. The Northam administration worked with the Defense Department only after the fact, but was able to reach the necessary agreements before guardsmen crossed state lines, she said. The governor’s office publicly announced that he had called up the Guard at 3:29 p.m.

Once the Pentagon signed off, the Guard mounted a vast response.

“Going through that mission analysis process, we were able to do an analysis and provide more than what they asked for,” the defense official said. “No one asked us to activate the entire Guard. Those are decisions we made on our own by taking a pause and conducting another analysis.”

I suspect calls for the Mayor to resign will be forthcoming as this story gets digested

everlast75

Pictures showing that they turned up with cable ties, in addition to assault weapons, I.E.D.s and molotov cocktails.


"ThEy WeRe oNlY tHereE tO pRoTeSt!!