Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

ohnonotgmail

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Would the people who are being arrested for the more minor offences have a plausible defence that they were acting (or reasonably believed so) under the instruction of the lawful President? Would be interesting to see a lawyer run with it, but no idea if it would be a valid defence under USA laws.

By 'minor' I mean the people who are wanted for 'violence at Capitol Hill' as per Overheal's post #4157. Obviously the people with pipe-bombs or who have killed a police officer are different.

2 things.
1. do you think trump will release a statement that they were doing what he asked them to do
2. It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if he did. They were not in trumps chain of command. Even if they were the "following orders" excuse doesn't extend to criminal acts.

Sonics2k

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

But, according to that logic, wouldn't that Vet be a member of Antifa? And so, shouldn't they be happy with that?

Like I said, cognitive dissonance. They'll accept what they like and dismiss the rest.

I literally know yanks that truly believe 9/11 was an inside job by the Deep State, but still entirely support the idea of evil Muslims and invading Afghanistan/Iraq was the best idea for revenge.

It's weird looking at America from the outside in, but they probably have some of the best propaganda in the world. Even questioning certain actions makes you "Un-American" and a communist. They're largely raised to truly believe their military are all heroes and only do the right thing, and if they do a bad thing it's only because the bad thing was really a good thing.

Like or dislike her politics, AOC is a fine example of the American Dream. Coming from a lower class background, put herself through university while working an awful job at a diner but has worked her ass off to become a US Rep. Despite this, Trump supporters will refuse to acknowledge this because of her political views.

Polar101

tigger123 wrote: »

An attempt to put a halt to a democratic process. Two pipe bombs. Cable ties. 5 people dead.

What would you describe it as?

An attempted coup. I don't know if that was what they intended when it started, but given that they did get inside and people died, it ended as an attempted coup.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't go that far Overheal.

In fairness, if they had acted in a more heavy handed fashion, it could have been a bloodbath. I don't think anyone would want to see that.

Besides once they were in the building, they really hadn't a clue what to do with themselves. I don't think anybody had thought things through.

they opened the barriers. an officer can be seen waving them in. I think collusion is quite apt.

Professor Moriarty

Sonics2k wrote: »

Like I said, cognitive dissonance. They'll accept what they like and dismiss the rest.

I literally know yanks that truly believe 9/11 was an inside job by the Deep State, but still entirely support the idea of evil Muslims and invading Afghanistan/Iraq was the best idea for revenge.

It's weird looking at America from the outside in, but they probably have some of the best propaganda in the world. Even questioning certain actions makes you "Un-American" and a communist. They're largely raised to truly believe their military are all heroes and only do the right thing, and if they do a bad thing it's only because the bad thing was really a good thing.

Like or dislike her politics, AOC is a fine example of the American Dream. Coming from a lower class background, put herself through university while working an awful job at a diner but has worked her ass off to become a US Rep. Despite this, Trump supporters will refuse to acknowledge this because of her political views.

Good post.

joe40

Sonics2k wrote: »

Won't happen. Trump's supporters are showing a lot of cognitive dissonance. Right now they're out there claiming it was all an Antifa/BLM false flag thing. Weirdly they'll go on about how sad it is an innocent US Vet was killed in the building, but it was still an Antifa thing.

I don't think impeachment will happen either, I just think it definitely should. His behaviour has been criminal, and has directly led to the death of a police officer defending the seat of govt.

salmocab

Polar101 wrote: »

An attempted coup. I don't know if that was what they intended when it started, but given that they did get inside and people died, it ended as an attempted coup.

There were certainly some there that thought what they were doing was going to end with Trump being re-elected. Now they might be absolute morons and thick as pig **** but what they were attempting was a coup. I’d say most there were there to protest and had no intention of doing anything other than shouting in badly chosen clothes but that doesn’t mean that the former crowd were doing anything other than attempting to change what was happening inside the building. The timing wasn’t an accident or anything they were there for a specific event happening inside.

duploelabs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Everything needs to be investigated. However, not taking a phone call is a far cry from what the article is implying. Their 'sources' are an unnamed Parisian security official and two unspecified agents from NATO countries. It's laced with supposition and innuendo based.

I appreciate that, however it's already been reported by more than one source. Rachel Maddow was discussing it yesterday evening

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they opened the barriers. an officer can be seen waving them in. I think collusion is quite apt.

"Collusion" is a strong word though. Colluding in what? A coup? The murder of elected representatives? Or breaking into a public building?

I don't really see evidence for any of the the above to be honest. I figure it was more to do with a safety valve response more than anything else. Let the fools have their 15 minutes of fame and then tell them to bugger off home. A dangerous game, no doubt. But a lot less dangerous than opening up on a crowd of nutters.

Professor Moriarty

duploelabs wrote: »

I appreciate that, however it's already been reported by more than one source. Rachel Maddow was discussing it yesterday evening

I can't see how it possibly could happen. Most of the security agencies such as the CIA and FBI would not be pro Trump. Any hint of Trump organising this attack as a bona fide coup would have been picked up immediately and exposed. These people are too diverse anyway: Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, QAnon etc. It was stoked by Trump but the idea that he organised it is farfetched. It was a loose band of extremists who wandered around the building like schoolchildren on a day trip once they got in.

Sonics2k

joe40 wrote: »

I don't think impeachment will happen either, I just think it definitely should. His behaviour has been criminal, and has directly led to the death of a police officer defending the seat of govt.

I'd be astonished if it happened. The Republican party has propped up Trump for years now, and they won't back down, despite the public knowledge most of them can't actually stand him.

However, Trump has the ability to do something most politicians can't. He can hold a crowd and rile people up. Obama had the same talent, Bush Jnr and Al Gore did not.

They know that when the time comes to vote again, whether it's for their current roles or they push for President, if they support Trump now then they'll automatically get his voters onside.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

"Collusion" is a strong word though. Colluding in what? A coup? The murder of elected representatives? Or breaking into a public building?

I don't really see evidence for any of the the above to be honest. I figure it was more to do with a safety valve response more than anything else. Let the fools have their 15 minutes of fame and then tell them to bugger off home. A dangerous game, no doubt. But a lot less dangerous than opening up on a crowd of nutters.

there was no dangerous crush at the barriers. they opened them anyway and yelled "go, go" to the protestors. certainly sounds collusive to me.

duploelabs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I can't see how it possibly could happen. Most of the security agencies such as the CIA and FBI would not be pro Trump. Any hint of Trump organising this attack as a bona fide coup would have been picked up immediately and exposed. These people are too diverse anyway: Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, QAnon etc. It was stoked by Trump but the idea that he organised it is farfetched. It was a loose band of extremists who wandered around the building like schoolchildren on a day trip once they got in.

While that may be the case, trump always looks for loyalty with his appointees, a new appointee may not be 'in on it' but they may not take the call if told not to by himself.
And besides, like everything from the four seasons landscaping to building the wall, everything he has planned has been half arsed and ramshackle, so of course this coup is going to be poorly planned and executed

swampgas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I can't see how it possibly could happen. Most of the security agencies such as the CIA and FBI would not be pro Trump. Any hint of Trump organising this attack as a bona fide coup would have been picked up immediately and exposed. These people are too diverse anyway: Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, QAnon etc. It was stoked by Trump but the idea that he organised it is farfetched. It was a loose band of extremists who wandered around the building like schoolchildren on a day trip once they got in.

The vast majority of the mob may be that - useful idiots - but that doesn't mean that there aren't people inside the government and agencies willing to facilitate it in whatever way they can. I've worked with otherwise sane Americans who genuinely are afraid of the Dems and who would be tempted to go along with a Trump coup if it meant "Republican for ever" government.

Sonics2k

Tony EH wrote: »

"Collusion" is a strong word though. Colluding in what? A coup? The murder of elected representatives? Or breaking into a public building?

I don't really see evidence for any of the the above to be honest. I figure it was more to do with a safety valve response more than anything else. Let the fools have their 15 minutes of fame and then tell them to bugger off home. A dangerous game, no doubt. But a lot less dangerous than opening up on a crowd of nutters.

There was no crush, the cops didn't move back to stop a panic. Footage is widely available of cops opening the barriers and encouraging them to move in.

Police are supposed to be neutral, to uphold the law and keep the peace. To Protect and Serve as the yanks love.

Over the years there have been many protests at Capitol Hill. In every other case the police have removed people with force, including the religious peaceful protesters and even a group of literally disabled people who were peacefully protesting during the healthcare debate.

https://dcist.com/story/17/06/22/police-remove-disabled-demonstrator/

Meanwhile a group of cops willingly allowed a large amount of Trumps supporters in, with full knowledge that these guys were proudly armed and included a large number of -literal- neo nazi's.

Professor Moriarty

duploelabs wrote: »

While that may be the case, trump always looks for loyalty with his appointees, a new appointee may not be 'in on it' but they may not take the call if told not to by himself

If that was the case, the appointee is very stupid to do his bidding on such matters. There is a case to be made for treason in that scenario.

everlast75

Idiots downplaying what happened.

They do know they are planning the same for the 20th?

Trump *will* be forced to do whatever is necessary to stop this happening again, whether it is resign or be removed. That latest video is the smallest first step, but he will be forced to do much more. It will be humiliating for him.

He's going to push back. You can see those little struggles, where he insists he was robbed is an example while asking for calm.

The next 2 weeks are going to be ****ing awful for him, and I love to see it.

Professor Moriarty

swampgas wrote: »

The vast majority of the mob may be that - useful idiots - but that doesn't mean that there aren't people inside the government and agencies willing to facilitate it in whatever way they can. I've worked with otherwise sane Americans who genuinely are afraid of the Dems and who would be tempted to go along with a Trump coup if it meant "Republican for ever" government.

I'm sure there are people like that. But there are infinitely more people who would see the constitution as most important. Anybody within the government and security agencies who facilitated this (and wouldn't think there are many) are in serious trouble if found out.

Sonics2k

everlast75 wrote: »

Idiots downplaying what happened.

They do know they are planning the same for the 20th?

Trump *will* be forced to do whatever is necessary to stop this happening again, whether it is resign or be removed. That latest video is the smallest first step, but he will be forced to do much more. It will be humiliating for him.

He's going to push back. You can see those little struggles, where he insists he was robbed is an example while asking for calm.

The next 2 weeks are going to be ****ing awful for him, and I love to see it.

I give it at best a week before he's back to the madness he was shouting last week.

Remember earlier this year when people got all happy because he gave a decent, thoughtful speech and he was finally being more Presidential. That last like 3 days.

swampgas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm sure there are people like that. But there are infinitely more people who would see the constitution as most important. Anybody within the government and security agencies who facilitated this (and wouldn't think there are many) are in serious trouble if found out.

Based on my own conversations, I'm not so sure. The US is very badly polarised, and siege-mentality thinking is common. This (in people minds) is about survival - literal survival and survival of their way of life. If the constitution doesn't protect them (in their own minds) then the constitution must be ignored.

*edit - all anecdotal and based on a relatively small sample

Professor Moriarty

everlast75 wrote: »

Idiots downplaying what happened.

They do know they are planning the same for the 20th?

Trump *will* be forced to do whatever is necessary to stop this happening again, whether it is resign or be removed. That latest video is the smallest first step, but he will be forced to do much more. It will be humiliating for him.

He's going to push back. You can see those little struggles, where he insists he was robbed is an example while asking for calm.

The next 2 weeks are going to be ****ing awful for him, and I love to see it.

It will be death by a thousand cuts as appointees abandon him and his powers are stripped away.

yagan

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump leaves the White House in a body bag.

Professor Moriarty

swampgas wrote: »

Based on my own conversations, I'm not so sure. The US if very badly polarised, and siege-mentality thinking is common. This (in people minds) is about survival - literal survival and survival of their way of life. If the constitution doesn't protect them (in their own minds) then the constitution must be ignored.

I think they are a significant but small minority. Biden's biggest task is to bring these people back into the fold. Otherwise domestic terrorism will flourish. However, if it flourishes, it will alienate many of these diehards.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I went down a Twitter rabbit hole last night out of curiosity of people convinced that unimpeachable evidence that the US election was rigged is poised to be exposed. Seems strange to sit on such apparent smoking gun evidence, doesn’t it? Time’s a-wastin’, internet cranks. The claim is that the, urgh, MSM is suppressing this evidence. Excuses, excuses.

flazio

everlast75 wrote: »

Idiots downplaying what happened.

They do know they are planning the same for the 20th?

Trump *will* be forced to do whatever is necessary to stop this happening again, whether it is resign or be removed. That latest video is the smallest first step, but he will be forced to do much more. It will be humiliating for him.

He's going to push back. You can see those little struggles, where he insists he was robbed is an example while asking for calm.

The next 2 weeks are going to be ****ing awful for him, and I love to see it.

Making you no better than him if I'm honest.

The idea makes me sick in my stomach but I believe it deserves to be considered. Because the Biden administration has 80 million Trump voters to govern for the next 4 years, hopefully more, it might be prudent to consider Biden giving Trump a pardon in order to peacefully reduce the risk of another riot.

duploelabs

yagan wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump leaves the White House in a body bag.

Parse that out

robinph

yagan wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump leaves the White House in a body bag.

Who, what, how is that going to happen?

Unless he catches Covid19 again in the next week of course.

swampgas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think they are a significant but small minority. Biden's biggest task is to bring these people back into the fold. Otherwise domestic terrorism will flourish. However, if it flourishes, it will alienate many of these diehards.

I agree, a small minority, but that may be enough to start a coup.

IMO the only way this stops is a growth in middle ground bipartisanship, and I don't have much hope of that emerging for a long time yet. The Republicans have been toxic to US politics for decades, I don't think the Dems should be over-eager to offer the olive branch.

yagan

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think they are a significant but small minority. Biden's biggest task is to bring these people back into the fold. Otherwise domestic terrorism will flourish. However, if it flourishes, it will alienate many of these diehards.

They were always there, many never voted before Trump.

Once Trump's gone expect lots of deradicalisation of the internet.

ohnonotgmail

flazio wrote: »

Making you no better than him if I'm honest.

The idea makes me sick in my stomach but I believe it deserves to be considered. Because the Biden administration has 80 million Trump voters to govern for the next 4 years, hopefully more, it might be prudent to consider Biden giving Trump a pardon in order to peacefully reduce the risk of another riot.

both sides.